Podcast Transcript
Attendees:
Joshua Boswell, Margie Boswell, Vanessa Kahlon.
Transcript:
Joshua Boswell: Hey everybody, welcome to the Happy Family Club podcast. We are so excited to have here today with us a very incredible, special guest. I'm gonna let Margie introduce her, but the accomplishments of this woman, and what she's doing for families in the world is just off the charts. So we're super excited to have you here.
Margie Boswell: It’s incredible. This is Vanessa Kahlon. Did I say that right?
Vanessa Kahlon: You did!
Margie Boswell: Yeah we’re so happy that you’re here with us, Vanessa. She's got a master's in clinical psychology and has done some amazing, amazing work with giving hope to families with children that have special needs… and children in general, right? Yeah,…
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Margie Boswell: She just gives a lot of support and behavior consultation. She's the founder of the Kahlon Family Services. That really helps parents a lot. I love your yoga program. I'd love you to tell us a little bit about that in a minute to help high spirited children, just manage their actual body, with self-regulation, and expression. Yeah,…
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: When Margie saw that she's like, Honey, you're taking that class.
Vanessa Kahlon: It's all about body, awareness, and self-regulation, right?
Margie Boswell: There you go!
Joshua Boswell: Hi spirited, problems of self-regulation, problems staying focused, I got it all.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yep. We all do.
Joshua Boswell: But also the school, the K through 8th grade school that you've founded serving the Bay Area community is really amazing. Nonprofit school there that we'd love to hear about also, she's been recognized multiple times for all the impact that she's had. She was named Woman of the Year by the National Association of Professional Women.
Joshua Boswell: So Cool
Margie Boswell: And also Top 30 Influential Entrepreneurs List. That's Amazing, Vanessa!
Vanessa Kahlon: Thanks!
Margie Boswell: You’ve done some great things. And ultimately her podcast that she does that I'm sure everyone would benefit from. We've already benefited from it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Margie Boswell: So, parenting with Vanessa Kahlon is the podcast name, right?
00:05:00
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, you got it. So thank you.
Margie Boswell: Okay. Well, we're excited to chat with you today. Thanks for being here, Vanessa.
Vanessa Kahlon: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited.
Joshua Boswell: Cool. So, I wanted to get to the question that we love asking people, and that is, What's a key principle that you feel could help families be happier? I mean, because you see families of all ends of the spectrum and all different shapes and sizes.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: In San Francisco you're in a massive melting pot. I can only imagine the different cultures and backgrounds and insights and education levels and everything… and I bet you just see it all.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, one of the differences with me is that I'm in the home, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I think a lot of times, I don't… Like to me, if you're going to the office, kids know what to say, they know how to act and what to do. So for me I like to be in the home and then everybody kind of just brings down that little mask that everyone wants to show… Like, how amazing of a person they are, which is great, but it's not really helping if you want to change the dynamics.
Joshua Boswell: Right… I'm here to get advice on how to change but I'm already perfect. I mean I'm not doing anything wrong. Like… Okay, wait a minute.
Vanessa Kahlon: So I think to me, it's coming down to being consistent but also being honest to like… it's everybody working on something and instead of saying, Okay my child is the problem. Really it's the relationship, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So if there is a fraction in that relationship, it's both parties. It's not just one. So it's like, How do you look at both people and how they can change? Because I think a lot of times we're expecting children to do all the work. And then it's like the kids end up later regretting.
Joshua Boswell: Mm-hmm
Vanessa Kahlon: It’s like… you didn't… I did all the stuff and you're still doing the same thing. You're still yelling at me. What am I gonna do?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Margie Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: But it really comes, I think, down to the relationship piece, and having open communication, and the consistency. Because I think a lot of times people don't realize when you're inconsistent, that causes a lot more anxiety because the child doesn't know where you're coming from and what you're going to say, and what you're going to do, which causes a lot of anxiety, which then equals a lot of behaviors. And acting out.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Incredible.
Vanessa Kahlon: So it's all how you feel on the inside.
Joshua Boswell: So okay, I want to… You named a couple of different really crucial principles there. I want to dive into each of them. But first, it strikes me that it would be helpful for everyone to get a little bit of a sense of your background. I mean, I think it's really unusual the situation you’re in. All of the stuff that you've done, you've worked so many years to help families…. Like, what's your backstory? What got you into this? And why are you so passionate about it? Because to me, it's a really special, powerful thing. And you're unique in what you do. So how did you…
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, I'm very specialized. I tell people, You're coming to my school. You're coming from my approach… So I have, I was in special ed as a kid, and then graduated high school with like a 1.87 gpa.
Joshua Boswell: Nice! Congratulations.
Margie Boswell: You made it!
Vanessa Kahlon: Failed every psychology class my first time around, I just felt like, as a kid, I have processing… and I have dyslexia and I have other stuff that goes on with me. But when you look at me, you're not gonna see that right? So I think there's a lot of times that I was constantly getting in trouble for things that I couldn't control.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And so, how do you….? And then I got diagnosed at 26 with dyslexia. And so, I had to…
Joshua Boswell: You were 26? Wow.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, and I actually ended up getting it like,…
Vanessa Kahlon: I mean listen…. I could talk my way out of anything, and I can battle.
Joshua Boswell: You got that bright smile, and you just charisma your way through everything, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: I can just go through life that way. And so, for me, it was so much harder in my twenties. And that life was just hard. I couldn't figure out how… My grammar was off. I couldn't do anything. Sending out an email gave me a panic attack. Even just like, Hey, how are you? Just this. Because I'm like, I’m gonna probably get their wrong. The two, I mean, you name it, It's gonna be wrong and…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I write how I speak. So it's all over the place.
Joshua Boswell: Wow and… Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And then for me it was so difficult…. I don't ever want a child to have to go through that. So I see when kids are masking. I see when kids are pretending that they know when they don't know. And I think a lot of times people think, oh well… my kid has high verbal skills, but I have really great verbal skills.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And I can talk my way out of things… but it's really going back down to why are they acting out? And what's really going on? Which usually comes down to learning differences. I've also done everything under the sun to get myself in trouble with my parents. So just…
Margie Boswell: We relate to that too.
Joshua Boswell: What’s that old expression? You can't con a con man? Right? So it's like… you've done it all… so good.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right! And so when kids are like, How did you know? I already know what you're doing. And I know what you're thinking. You can tell by… once you know your kids, you can tell by the eyes, right? You're like nope, don't even think about it. Nope, I already see, you're thinking it.
Joshua Boswell: Right…
Vanessa Kahlon: What are you talking about!?
And then what happened was, I developed this yoga program, because I feel like talk therapy doesn't work for children. And there's plenty of everything else like how do you actually get kids to understand self-regulation and body awareness?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And so that's where the yoga program came in. I was like, Oh, this is gonna take off.
Joshua Boswell: Where did the yoga come in the sequence here? Because you've written books, you've got a school, you do individual consulting in the home. So, where… You went to school. So did you develop the yoga thing just after school, or how did you… What's the origin story behind where you were at with this stuff?
Vanessa Kahlon: So for me, I think the difference with me is that I can't… You give me a ton of steps to do, I’m like, What?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I think where I specialize is breaking everything down, so like… if you're looking at a sequence with children, How do you break each step down? Going into downward dog. Right there, there's five steps. People don't think like that, they just think you're just going down and doing it. No. Some kids you have to have to break it down.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So I have a lot of visual supports… And that was my first thing that I ever did. I went around and I have a 10 hour teacher training that I trained individuals on with a tool kit that goes with that.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Vanessa Kahlon: So that was my first project. And then the pandemic yet.
So we're going back to getting back on that track with the training. And also, the kids who have autism and processing issues, if you say roar like an elephant, What does that mean?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So I really look at language and… how do you make something that's so abstract more concrete? And then breathing, What does it mean to take a deep breath? I mean that, as adults… it doesn't make any sense to a five year old.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Margie Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: So being able to teach, How do you teach the breathing? How do you teach these skill sets? And I also teach kids, and I know people hear me say this, at age five it's a choice to be happy or not. You have a choice in what you want. And that's something that I really believe in. And that's in my school, too. You can have a horrible day, but that's on you, you're not ruining my day.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: You know? It's a choice. And I feel like a lot of times we're doing so much processing with kids nowadays that it causes more anxiety. We talk too much.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: That's why my book is called Shut Up and Parent. Stop Talking.
Joshua Boswell: Yep. Stop talking and start parenting, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, it’s just like… Stop. I understand that things happen. Yes. Acknowledge that. But then, Okay, what's the plan? So, we want to teach resiliency. We want to teach problem solving skills versus sitting there and then parent picks up at school and it’s… Was Johnny a bully again?! And then talking… and you're just, you're part of the problem now. Because you're not thinking of ways to self-avocate. How do you do that versus like, It's always that one kid at school that does it…
I like those “one kids” at school that nobody likes to be around.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: Those are the ones I like. The challenge, right?
Margie Boswell: Right. Good for you, that's awesome.
Joshua Boswell: Amazing Origin Story. It's incredible how you rolled into that and started off with the Yoga and put that class together. I love too how you break this stuff down and see like… Okay your breathing isn't just… To us it's like a one word thing. It's just action. But it’s not, there’s multiple steps involved. Downward dog. Multiple steps involved. It's really cool. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. And a lot of times everyone’s talking about the core and how to help the kids focus and especially ones that are fidgeting in the classroom. But it's like you would want to do a sequence. So again it's like… breaking it down. That makes the most sense.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And also teaching the child… I think a lot of times we forget that if you teach the child why we're doing it, they're most likely going to do it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: If we just keep… I think we forget and not explain things to children. It's like, Okay this is gonna help you with X, Y and Z. Really? Yeah, try it. What do you think? Did it help? Yeah, it did, actually.
But again, it’s that self-reflection. And it's like, Okay, do you want to do this or do you want to do that? Like, giving the child choices there. And then what the yoga program started…. I was at a different school, so a lot of times parents were hiring. I would provide support professionals, I call them social coaches.
So a lot of kids were having a hard time in the classroom and it just so happened that in one week three kids got kicked out. And then I’m like… What am I gonna do with these kids? That's how the school started.
Joshua Boswell: No way! So you're like, I'll teach them, right.
Vanessa Kahlon: Well, you got to understand everyone's like, You should have a school. My background in education is like… School sucks. I don't want to go back.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: So I feel like my karma and life is like, I had to go back to kindergarten, first, second third, because everything's individualized. And I had to reteach myself everything all over again at 30.
Joshua Boswell: Right!
Vanessa Kahlon: Or 35… I was like, Was this my karma for not paying attention?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Margie Boswell: There you go.
Vanessa Kahlon: I had to find a master's program that doesn't take tests. I had to find something that was accredited, but there's only like four in the country. And that's why I ended up in the Bay.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Right.
Margie Boswell: Wow!
Vanessa Kahlon: So it's like I'm not taking a test. If you have a test for me, I'm gonna probably start sweating. And then if I'm in a class and someone asks me a question, I'm gonna probably like black out and not remember. Like… that's how much anxiety I get.
Margie Boswell: Wow, that's amazing.
Joshua Boswell: Incredible.
Vanessa Kahlon: I had a dad who's actually on a team that did Java script. So he came into my school to volunteer. He was like, Vanessa take the class. And then he's asking everyone questions. And I… literally I swear, I had multiple panic attacks inside of it. I’m like, Do not ask me a question. Because I do not remember the question because I already have anxiety about what's gonna happen. And I go, And you're my parent?
Joshua Boswell: It's like, Do not ask me… we’re not doing this. That's hilarious. That's great. So let's go… I’ve got so much I want to dig deeper with you, but go back to… you're in the homes, you're talking with the parents and the parents are… I mean typically parents kind of come from this attitude of like, Oh let’s hire Vanessa to fix my kids, right? And you get in there and you’re like, Oh actually… your relationship’s busted because it's a two-way street.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: There’s two parts to this relationship. And sometimes the parents just expect the child to change, but they're not shifting.
Vanessa Kahlon: No.
Joshua Boswell: So what kind of behavior shifts have you come across most that parents need to take? I mean, what are some…. like, if we were to say, Hey, Vanessa, what are some top, three or four things that you see that Parents are goofing up on in that relationship? Would you be able to like…
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. Yeah,…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, just off the top your head.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, I think for me, I'm finding and I've talked to a couple a superintendent down in LA and everything else and what we're finding is that the rewards and consequences aren't working. And everybody is using it all the time.
Joshua Boswell: Oh…
Vanessa Kahlon: And to me it's like, if the rewards aren't working and the consequences aren't working, there has to be another approach. That's where I developed the three R method which is the Rewind Redo Repair. So a lot of parents will be like, You're having me reinforce behavior by spending quality time after they just did X, Y and Z. And I'm going, Well, it's not reinforcing behavior, it's rebuilding the relationship.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: You know what I mean?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I'm not gonna tell a kid, You can go get ice cream as a reward. I'm gonna say, No, we're both gonna go get ice cream. We're gonna do this together and we're gonna be together and we're gonna do this. Versus, Okay, you want, Roblox or something on Roblox and then you get it. No, it’s gonna be we're doing something together. Because whenever you find yourself in this battle of the will, like… who's gonna win? We all do this. And when you're like, Ahhh…. my child isn't stopping and I'm not stopping, that's when you have to just say, Forget it. We're done for the day. Let's go have some fun.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: And start tomorrow. Start over.
Margie Boswell: Start over tomorrow, right.
Vanessa Kahlon: And it's not reinforcing the behavior. It's just like, you know what? We both need a break. And that's okay.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. That is so incredibly powerful.
Margie Boswell: That’s great.
Joshua Boswell: So there… you know in the reward system it's like Pavlov's dog. If I ring the bell, then they will act perfectly right? If I give enough rewards… and we see this, Margie and I have seen this where we've seen parents who set up elaborate allowance systems for example, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And inevitably… we saw one family, which was so fascinating. So every household task had a dollar amount attached to it. And what we started seeing was the kids started negotiating.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right?! Yeah, 100%.
Joshua Boswell: That's right, they started negotiating the problem. And they're like, I actually decided that I don't want to do it for 30 cents or a dollar anymore. So unless you pay me a buck 50, I'm not gonna do it. And all of the sudden the kid had this amazing set of leverage and the parent was like… Oh… uh… uh… So yeah. Reward system… yeah. Uh-uh.
Vanessa Kahlon: So, I do want to say with kids with autism, it does work really well. Because, I mean, you're teaching a social piece on there. So I want to be up front there.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yes.
Vanessa Kahlon: But other kids. No, it doesn't work. It doesn't make any sense. …
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I have a kid that one time said, Look, Vanessa I was really kind to someone at the park, do I get a reward? And I’m like… what, for being kind? No.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Like… this is human…
Vanessa Kahlon: That's what you're supposed to do. That's human behavior. Be kind.
Margie Boswell: Right, yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And what happens is, you're looking at the external behavior, and you're not touching how a child feels on the inside.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Right. Yeah
Vanessa Kahlon: So that's… where I think the rewards and consequences don't work. Because they're not internalizing it. So it becomes something that I'm only going to do this…. And I hope… This is where my mouth just drops. When a kid says, I went to see my therapist, and my mom gave me twenty dollars for it. I'm like, Excuse me? What?
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Vanessa Kahlon: Well, I wasn't gonna go unless I got money. And I'm like, There's a problem here.
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah, yeah. Big time.
Margie Boswell: That’s a problem.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, it’s like, That's your own mental health. That's your own self-care, and you're not gonna value it because you’re gonna be like, Well I made 20 bucks on that. And this has happened multiple times and I'm like, This is not gonna happen with me.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I'm gonna show up at the house. And there's times where they’re like, I'm not gonna see her. I'm like, I'm still gonna come, and the mom was like, no… we're not gonna keep you coming. No, the point is if you commit to this with me, I keep showing up.
Joshua Boswell: Keep showing up,…
Joshua Boswell: right? Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I'm going to keep showing up,…
Joshua Boswell: Love it.
Vanessa Kahlon: But that's what kids need. They're gonna be like, I'm gonna push you away because I want to see if you're gonna come back. Are you gonna be consistent? Or are you gonna be like everybody else that leaves? So I usually have one kid that's pretty difficult to have to break in.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: And I see every day even for about a month and then we're able to get back into school or we're doing other things like that. But I always say I am like the last resort before they end up going somewhere else…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: But no one's ever really gone anywhere else, which is good because I get them so young.
Margie Boswell: Right. Yeah. That’s awesome.
Joshua Boswell: So they stay out of jail. That's fabulous. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: Well they learn how to be a kind human being.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: I'm always like… I hope they don't date till later in life so they don’t get…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Love it. So you also mentioned… Well, two things. One is the reward system ends up being the parents seeing that like, We have to fix the external behavior. And you're saying, No, actually there's an internal set of things that need to be adjusted. Maybe you can talk to that for just a little bit. Like, as parents, how do we affect that internal system that's going on? I mean, we want to make it so it's like, Look, if I just paid 20 bucks to the kid, everything will be solved, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. No…
Joshua Boswell: But that's… So how do we influence that internal set of behaviors and help them to shift.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. So you…
Joshua Boswell: And help us to shift, right? Because I'm thinking the same thing. Like, externally… I don't want to do the internal work to figure out how to be a great parent. I just want to cop up 20 bucks or 100 bucks and be done with all of this. So, I'm saying that facetiously, I personally like to do the internal work, but I'm wondering about your insights on shifting the internal behavior of the parent and the child. What are your thoughts on that?
Vanessa Kahlon: So that comes down to building the relationship. And so… little things that do add up so the child starts to feel good about themselves. So it's not like, Okay, I'm gonna make my bed and then I make a dollar. It's, Okay, I'm gonna feel good about myself when I come home, and I see that my bed’s made and you contributed back into the family. And I always… one of the things I tell parents is like, if you have a child that doesn't like compliments, like… what is going on for that child?
Joshua Boswell: Right. Wow.
Vanessa Kahlon: So to me, like… I will never give compliments to any of my kids at my school and also ask permission because they might be feeling bad about themselves or not. So it's almost like, That was a great art paper, and then you give them a compliment and then they rip it up. So what does that mean? What are they telling us?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So they're telling us how we feel on the inside. No, you don't know what it's like, but I'm gonna show you how I feel. And parents are like, Well I'm always complimenting and I'm always reinforcing. It's not gonna work if they don't feel good about themselves. So again it's looking at little things, little tasks that they can do that they can feel good about themselves.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Vanessa Kahlon: That's where you want to put your energy, not into these rewards and consequences that don't make any sense.
Joshua Boswell: So I've just understood the magic of something Margie has done with all of our children.
Margie Boswell: Oh. Uh-oh…
Joshua Boswell: This is good. So from the time… As soon as they're old enough to stand up and be able to recognize shapes, she has assigned our young children a job. And the first job has always been to sort the silverware.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. 100%.
Joshua Boswell: And it's like, Okay, dishes get done out of the dishwasher and then they just get dumped into the silverware drawer and it's like, Okay, your job is a sort the silverware.
Margie Boswell: So we pull up a chair because they're not big enough. So you got to get on the chair and they've got to sort it.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. And that's…
Joshua Boswell: And then it's like, Hey, look, the family gets to eat and we all have dishes because you contributed, it was awesome. Thank you. Right?
Margie Boswell: Then they can feel good about what they can do. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: No, 100% That's why all my kids at school have jobs.
Joshua Boswell: Amazing.
Vanessa Kahlon: You know what I mean? Those are the things that you want to look at - little stuff like that. And it's just even when you go to the grocery store and handing the card to the child to pay, Right?
Joshua Boswell: Yes, right.
Vanessa Kahlon: So it's like little things like that where they go, Wow! I was able to do that. And I don't think we realize that we're doing everything for a kid all the time. That's where self-esteem drops. Then they think that they can’t do it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: So, if you can…
Joshua Boswell: They don't, I think that sometimes parents think, Okay, if I do things, or give things to my child, I'm good. That's my love language. That's the way I'm showing them that I love them.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: But what you're saying is that it's highly probable that the child's thinking, Mom and Dad don't believe I can do anything, so they're just doing it for me.
Vanessa Kahlon: And a lot of… yeah.
Joshua Boswell: I mean that's a signal that they could be getting there.
Vanessa Kahlon: Hundred percent. So if you're doing everything for your kid all the time, and then it's like… maybe you like things done a certain way, it's okay to be messy!
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: And show it, you know what I mean? But I think the more that we're doing for our kids all the time and they're not learning independence, then they are not building that self-esteem in their self-worth and then they start to think they can't do it. Right?
00:25:00
Joshua Boswell: That is awesome…
Vanessa Kahlon: You have other kids that… with the consequences, when you want to take something away, it's like, You're gonna take something away? I don't think I deserve it anyways. So, go ahead.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: Take it. I don't care. So, again, we're looking at the self-esteem and that's what the three R’s that we do, it's like, How do you go back and reteach the situation that just happened? How do you teach these kids that their voices matter, and that they can do things for themselves and feel good about themselves? Versus saying, Hey a dollar for each thing that you did to be nice.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Margie Boswell: That's great information right there.
Joshua Boswell: That's like a mic drop. Boom, it's amazing.
Because I think that a lot of… We’ve seen a pattern where there's a lot of reactionary parenting.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Meaning, I grew up with this struggle or… I had this unfulfilled dream or… I always imagine that I could have xyz life, or lifestyle, or gadget or whatever. And so I'm gonna work really hard and give that stuff to my children. So that they can have what I didn't have. And I think I saw a quote somewhere that was like, Don't give your children stuff that you wish you had. Give them knowledge that they can use… or something like that. I can't remember the exact quote.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right….
Joshua Boswell: But what? Yeah. Go ahead.
Vanessa Kahlon: So this is an interesting topic because for me, I started this school without… Like, I don't come from a family with the money. I’m single in San Francisco. It's expensive.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And, we have my debt and everything else and like… I can't afford all that. We just can’t. Our budget's not there. We have six kids, I have more staffing for the emotional needs. I care about the emotional piece.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And if we have to go out to the park and bring things back, the leaves or whatever. I don't know… you have all these schools that have a ton of money and all these resources, but are the kids happy?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: What I can genuinely tell you is that I don't have all the resources, but my team, and how we work, and how we work with these kids, and how we have to teach them to build and do things on their own…. they're happy. So it's not the material things. And I can say from experience because I can't afford… Someone can donate, that's totally cool. But I mean there's just things that I would love to provide more things, but it's just not where we are right now and the kids know it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: But every year for our anniversary of the school, we go to Benihanas and the kids love it. So I have these rituals that I've created for these memories. These are things that we budget but these are the experiences that… and I just keep it going every year. And then Shabbat on Fridays. I'll like, what are we grateful for? And like, building the community. And you can also do cooking classes and things that don't cost a lot.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And that is what kids are gonna remember. So that's more of like the relationship piece.
Joshua Boswell: So, you talked a little bit about it, and I think it probably ties in here, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. You talked a little bit about resilience. And this is sort of this… 10 years ago, I'm not sure anybody talked about resilience, I think it's talked about more these days. But maybe you could talk a little bit more about resilience and helping our children to be resilient and some ways to do that. And maybe it's the exact same thing we've been talking about, but I'd love to hear your thoughts specifically on that.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right, I think what we’re missing… So, for example, I had a conversation with a bunch of heads of schools.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And we're talking about… we were talking about just behaviors and what they're seeing in the classroom and everything else. So there was a fight that broke out and then a kid stomped on another kid's glasses, they broke the glasses. And so then the child goes to the principal's office. And so my question is, Where is the teaching? Right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: So my question is, how are we teaching these kids the problem solving skills and the resiliency? And that's where the three R’s… So for example, the Redo is like, after a child does something It's like the teacher that the parents say like, okay that’s a redo. We have to redo what just happened because there's a break in the relationship. Then you have the Rewind.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: That’s I'm going to model… show them what I want them to do differently. And then the Repair is being able to show and have that check in of how their actions affected the other person. Because I think if we're not teaching how your actions affect others, then that's where the issue comes in. Along with, well, what do you want to see differently?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So, if you see the redo,… my mind goes directly to, What am I supposed to be teaching this kid? What am I supposed to be doing to be able to make sure that that child has that? Because I think a lot of times, even with siblings, they get into a huge fight and maybe there's a social skills issue or a deficit in that area. They're not sure how to ask for help or they're not able to do it, parents just separate them. But there's no teaching. So then they come back to the same thing.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. With the same set of skills, the same attitude,…
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah,
Joshua Boswell: The same internal structure. Yes.
Margie Boswell: They haven’t changed at all.
Vanessa Kahlon: So they don't have the actual tool sets to actually play with together in that sense. And kids, when I teach my social skills group… you know I have one kid that she loses it. Like, on a scale of 1 to 10, we’re at an 11.
I love her with all my heart. But I mean like… we get to the point where I'm like, Are you gonna lose it? Yeah? Then we're not gonna do it. Well, I want it! I'm like, Are you going to try? Can you try not to lose it?
Joshua Boswell: Try not to lose it, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: Can you try? Yeah. But again, I'm going to set them up for success beforehand.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: So, I'm not going to just say,… Oh, We're gonna work on you not losing it. We're gonna work on… Well, I'm gonna give her the choice. Do you think you can handle it? Again, I'm making her start to think about her own actions, her own behavior, her own choices. It's not me managing her. And I think that's the difference…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. It’s her managing herself,…
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah. Yep.
Joshua Boswell: It's her making choices. And choosing, the behavior, the attitude, and the consequences. And having clarity that that's really what's going on here, right? It's not you compelling her into a certain behavior set.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, it's not like I'm gonna give you a cookie if you don't lose it. But see, then again, once that child is successful. Like, I didn't lose it. What did we just do? We increased the self esteem.
Joshua Boswell: Totally.
Vanessa Kahlon: We went internal. The problem that parents I think have… one of the issues that I find is that they want instant gratification. They want to see their child change instantly.
Joshua Boswell: Exactly.
Vanessa Kahlon: I’m like, No, this is six months to a year easy.
Margie Boswell: Can you give us an example of a parent doing the three R’s in a situation so that these parents can understand what you're saying?
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, so like… A child, okay.
Joshua Boswell: You can go back to that sibling argument scenario, you just talked about.
Vanessa Kahlon: Okay, the sibling argument. They're playing blocks. One of them just knocks the other one over, right?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: So then you would want the parent to get on the child's plane. Like, Oh, let's rewind that. Maybe you could’ve asked your sibling…. And you just model the language. I'm not gonna say, Oh, what could we have said differently? If the child would have known they would have done it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: We're just not gonna do that. I think it's condescending when we're like, What should we have said? No. So you model the language and say, Hey I want to build this tower, right?
Joshua Boswell: Okay.
Vanessa Kahlon: Then that child who knocked it is gonna help them build that. And you're gonna give language to both kids. And then you say to the kid, Then if you want to build something else, you just ask. Like, Can we do this? That child might say yes or no. I’m gonna respect that. Whatever that child says. That child says no? Okay, we'll wait till next time.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And then having that check-in afterwards. It's telling the child saying, Hey… And it might just be you modeling it first, and then within time the child will get it right. But it's like, How did that feel that I knocked that over? And that child's gonna tell him how he felt. And then the response back is like, I'm trying to control my body.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So acknowledging that they're trying to work on something. And then you do it again, but it's successful. We're gonna do it for two minutes and then you can go play separately. But again, that doing it successfully is the key to making sure that the child has a new skill set.
Margie Boswell: So next time when it happens, they know what to do.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah. Well maybe in the next five times. But yes.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah again, it’s a process.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, it’s a process.
Joshua Boswell: But I think the important thing is that when you do that, you set a precedence. So you as the parent know, and you can reference back and say, Okay…. hey let's talk about this again. So, Remember we talked about…? or, Hey this is how… Let's just roll through this again. You can roll through that scenario again. And I think being patient like you're saying.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: Being patient and having a long time horizon for this change set. You know, in investing, long time horizon wins. Always.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: As opposed to instant gratification or instant… I mean, there are people who win in the stock market doing currency trading, which is an instant turn around, but none of them are really billionaires. The big success is long-term time horizon. And I think that's part of the internal work that parents get to do. It's like, Okay, I get to shift my paradigm here a little bit. My child's not a puppet that I'm managing on a set of strings. They're a human being. Well, it’s true!
Vanessa Kahlon: I think I find that a lot of times kids with these behavior issues, the parents are like… It's not what they expected, right?
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And then there's this level of their own guilt that comes in that these loved ones…
Joshua Boswell: yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And on some of them, I find… I hate to say this but some parents want their kids like this, so then they get the attention and they feel needed. So then there's an internal… it's true. I mean I see all spectrums.
Joshua Boswell: yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: There is a part where I'm like… and I could tell them, I'm like once they start pulling away from me and I'm like, Oh, they're uncomfortable if they're kids doing well. Because then they,…
Joshua Boswell: When the parents pull away from you you’re saying?
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, when I’m like, Okay, we’re done now. Thank you very much. When the kid starts doing really well. And then there's a level of the parent feels like they're not needed.
Joshua Boswell: Oh wow. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I mean, these are things that… That’s why the internal work of yourself and understanding that your kid is their own individual, they're not going to be following in your footsteps. And when they don't, what does that feel like for you?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: But being able to look at that… that is a dynamic that I do see. And I also get kids that have had behavior issues for so long that it's weird when things start to get to normal.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Vanessa Kahlon: So how do you work with that?
Margie Boswell: Have to adjust…
Joshua Boswell: Right, so the parents got a new set of parenting skills, a new environment, a new normal, right? New comfort zone.
Vanessa Kahlon: And then… It's weird, but it's just like the same thing when a child that doesn't feel good about themselves and everything's going really well… it's like, they’re waiting for the shoe to drop. I mean, we all do that.
Joshua Boswell: Totally.
Vanessa Kahlon: When we meet a partner and we're like, this is great… What's gonna happen? What's next?
Margie Boswell: It's coming.
Vanessa Kahlon: We self-sabotage.
Joshua Boswell: And I want to send a really strong, clear message here to parents who are listening to this. And that is, if you find yourself in this situation that Vanessa's talking about where it's like, maybe you're starting to realize that, Oh, actually… I like my child being crazy or bad behavior or whatever you want to call it, because then I get additional attention and then I feel needed. So I get to come in and rescue and be the hero from time to time. That makes me feel important. So two things that I want to just clarify there, one is… No judgment, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: No judgment.
Joshua Boswell: We're on our own thing. But also, you might want to explore that there are healthier ways of doing that. And for yourself, it's like, Okay, this is really cool to know about me. And now you as the parent, and I'm talking directly to our parents. You, as a parent, get the opportunity to do a little bit of internal work so that, like you said, the relationship is both sides.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: Sometimes the parent’s challenges or dysfunction, or struggles… Sometimes get reflected in the child.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And so now we get to work on us. And I think you covered some of that in Shut Up And Parent. But I also think that…
Vanessa Kahlon: I do love that title. We are gonna do a second round on that one. I do love it.
Margie Boswell: You are?! Crazy.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yes. I do.
Joshua Boswell: Love it. So, I think… and the thing is, there's lots of resources out there. There's a lot of things to help parents in that situation. It really resonates with me. I got to tell you, I grew up in a home environment where what you're talking about is exactly what was going on. It's like, I'm gonna create problems so that I feel needed. It was dysfunctional and challenging but it was very real. And again, no judgment on my parents or what was going on there. They were doing the very best, they knew how to do, it was beautiful, right? Even if it was hard.
But the crazy part is, I see… I've done a lot of work because I see myself migrating to some of those things. That was normal. That's what I grew up as, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. I mean, I don't think… as a child gets older, more independent, you could start reflecting more on that piece. Because I think that when they’re younger, the needs are there. They need it. But I think as you're looking at filling in that hole, there's another thing. I mean it's just a lot of self work.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: My mom was here last week and she asked me… She's like, Was I a good parent? And I'm like… Uh, what?
Joshua Boswell: She's like, Vanessa, you're the parenting expert. How did I do?
Vanessa Kahlon: Well, she's been sitting in on some of my sessions because, I mean, some of my kids come to my house… Like, whatever. I'm doing stuff and she's listening cuz I have these kids on zoom because I do consultations all over the place.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And she asked me, Was I a good parent? And I go… I don’t know. I didn't know how to answer that for a second.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And then I had to think about it and I go, Man… she busted me on everything. I remember I almost didn’t graduate high school because I got caught forging her name on all these absent days. Like… they came up with a calendar of everything. And my mom's like, Uh… no. But my dad would have said, Yeah, I signed that. But my mom and I had the same signature. And she's like, No, you're gonna go in there. But that's where I think she taught me about taking responsibility. She didn't let me get away with anything.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So yeah, I told her I was like, You know what? You were a good mom. Yeah, we fought all the time. But she just always had her eyes on me. You know what I mean? And she's like, you were crazy.
And I remember what I think was junior year. She's like you, You're not saying anyone's house anymore, unless I talked to the parents and I know about it. I'm like, Did she know that I got caught sneaking out? So, I never stayed at anyone's house again after that.
Joshua Boswell: Love it. So funny.
Vanessa Kahlon: I think she did teach me a lot. But if my mom's gonna be there at 2 o'clock, she's there at 1:55. Like, I'm always on time, and there's just things that you model.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: And my parents were divorced. So I have two major different parenting styles that I grew up with. So I can see what causes anxiety and what does not. Where my biological father was like a hot mess.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So when you see that and then you're having to go and spend time there, and to having high anxiety, every which way, makes you not know what's coming up and what's consistent. Again the consistency piece. And then you don't know what's gonna happen next. And then you go to a home where everything is like… Dinner’s on the table at this time.
Joshua Boswell: Exactly, yeah. I love it.
Margie Boswell: And look how great you've turned out as you’ve worked through things!
Joshua Boswell: There, you go. Good for you, Vanessa.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah. …
Joshua Boswell: We're not gonna pay you or reward you financially for your good work,…
Vanessa Kahlon: No...
Joshua Boswell: But good job.
Margie Boswell: That gives all of us hope. You know?
Joshua Boswell: Can we compliment you on that?
Vanessa Kahlon: You're allowed to give me a compliment. I'll take it.
Joshua Boswell: Yes! Yes. You're awesome, Vanessa. So, one of the themes I hear comes up… you haven't said it… I guess you did a little bit, but it's like, the parent getting so that the child's behavior… they don't internalize it as a reflection on their own personal value or worth, right? It's like, you keep talking about the parent, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: So, the child is gonna make choices, parents are gonna make choices, and we don't have to… Because, I think sometimes, to go back to your block scenario, where the two siblings were playing and spilled the blocks....
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: I think that a lot of times, there's a couple different things that could happen there that you didn't address beautifully. Which was, One, the parent could freak out and punish those two kids. Or the one that knocked the block over, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And you could talk a little bit about what you've seen that does in terms of a child's self-worth and mentality and whatnot, the punishment angle. But I think the other thing is that walking away from that… So, punishment happens, kids all freak out, everyone's sad. It's a big hot mess. They separate everybody. And then there's all kinds of weird feelings. And then when they come back together, they don’t have the skills, so they do it again, right? That's the scenario you walked through.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: It's easy in that scenario for the parent to say, I already feel like I'm not a great parent. And I'm validating that because look, my kids are being terrible with each other. Clearly I am a terrible parent, right? And they're internalizing that.
Vanessa Kahlon: I also want to say something because this has come up multiple times. I just think some kids are just wired differently coming into this world.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So you can have the best parents… you can have everything. They're just trying but it's just how they're wired, how they process information…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: if there's a learning issue. And so, I just want to say… so when you have a kid that has a hard time with social skills, that is gonna mean that you're gonna have to be on their level. You're gonna have to get on the floor. Make sure you're having eye contact. And that's hard for parents, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So you're thinking that you're having this kid, and then you have a kid that's maybe more neurodiverse.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And how do you play? And that's why I think the yoga program for me is so great for parents is because downward dog is always downward dog. And you can be a dog for a minute. And a lot of times parents don't know how to play.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: You know… I prefer to play. If I'm at an event, I'm gonna be with the kids. I don't… adults scare me sometimes… because I'm like, What are you thinking? What do you… You know what I mean? I like to know where I stand. You will always know… Like, I don't have a filter, I am who I am. This is how I am with all my kids. This is how I am. I don't have multiple personalities going on. This is it. And I'm not the most liked person, which is fine because I just don't have the filters. Like, This is it.
I got other kids to help, so. I think it's hard to play when you don't... It's tapping into that childhood of your own and finding things that made you happy and sharing those experiences and remembering what made you happy at that point. And that's really hard for parents.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Margie Boswell: That's really good.
Joshua Boswell: So good to remember, go back and be that and remember.
Joshua Boswell: Go back and share that with your children. That’s great. Good advice.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah. I like roller skating and… then I fell. So we're not doing that for a while, but yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Roller skating and I never got along. Yeah.
00:45:00
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, I get it, but I love it. And I like horseback riding.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I take the kids to see the horses and the animals, that's where… Being able to teach different, nonverbal communication through animals and other things like that. Help children be able to look at different cues versus just looking at words and just hearing words.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah, love it. All sadly I got an eyeball on our time here a little bit.
Margie Boswell: Aww man!
Joshua Boswell: So I want to follow up on one other point here and then maybe we ought to move towards wrapping up because I think we could spend literally all day visiting with you. It’s awesome. Thank you.
Vanessa Kahlon: Thank you. I love it.
Joshua Boswell: So, you talked about the consistency point. And I was interested… you said your dad's a hot mess, your mother was like clockwork, and I wonder how… You know you see these different personalities in both the parent and the child, right? Like you said, we come wired differently, it's just the reality of it.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: But consistency, I think, regardless of how you're wired tends to be an important factor in human development, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: 100%.
Joshua Boswell: Okay so, how do we get there if you got a parent that's a hot mess and you got a child that's a hot mess. What have you seen as helpful in terms of creating that consistency? And what areas matter most? Like… Does mealtime consistency matter most? Does it just matter most like… disciplining or not disciplining? Or like… what areas in the family life have you seen make a big difference?
I guess what I'm saying is that if I'm a hot mess and I have limited bandwidth to actually be organized and consistent, are there some areas where I can focus and how do we do that?
Joshua Boswell: Be consistent.
Vanessa Kahlon: And I think if you're being a hot mess, you could say I'm a hot mess today and tomorrow be consistent and it's okay to own that.
Joshua Boswell: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And I think again that puts you back in control and… like for me… there’s my hot mess dog. The other thing is for me, when you say you're gonna do something that's where you have to build trust. Forget mealtime at a certain time… but if you say you're gonna do it, that's where I think words matter. Whether it’s we're leaving in 10 minutes or we're gonna do X, Y, and Z and following through with what you say.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: I know if I say it, I have to… it's done, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And that's the one thing… anybody that knows me… because even I was out my dinner with my mom with my friend, and my mom, and she's like, Vanessa, if you say two o'clock, she's there two o'clock. If she says she's gonna do it, she’s gonna do it. Because we're talking about this parenting thing and, that's how I am.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: Not everyone's like that nowadays. Having friendships, like, that is very difficult to find people that are on time, mean what they say, will follow through. So yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Totally. Yeah. I love it. Okay, So I think what I hear you saying is that the key point there is that when you say something, you say, Okay I made a commitment to this. You know there's a lot of stuff in your life that you can not be great at, but keeping that word I think is really important. And I think you're right, I think about how much… Well, I got two scenarios that come my mind. First one is all the years growing up, we were gonna go to Disneyland every year on vacation.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. My favorite place.
Joshua Boswell: Right right? But we literally never did once, right? And I think…
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And it is so interesting to me, because in the long scheme of things, does it really matter? That I didn't go to Disneyland as a kid? Like, does it really matter? No.
But the fact that I was promised that multiple times and then it didn't happen…? It's weird how that stuck with me, it's like I had to go through therapy with my dad, to feel like… get resolved on that.
Vanessa Kahlon: It's true because that doesn't… It's the trust. The trust is broken.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So when he tells you he's going to do something else. Are you gonna believe it?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: So that's the thing. I have Israeli stepdad and my mom's from here. Then my dad is here, and then a German step Mom, right? So I have like… multiple behaviors of different things happening.
Joshua Boswell: Different cultures, yeah. Totally.
Vanessa Kahlon: But I'll tell you, with my mom and my step dad as well. I mean, they meant it, they meant it. That's it. So, I also knew when I was getting in trouble, I was getting in trouble. I also knew that when I'm not in trouble, I'm not gonna be in trouble. Like, I just knew…
Joshua Boswell: Totally.
Vanessa Kahlon: I just knew the whole thing. So I think the consistency piece is like, you follow what you say. You mean what you say and you say what you mean, right? That's really simple.
Joshua Boswell: Totally. So another scenario comes my mind, we've seen, and Margie you’ll remember this. We’ve seen parents who do the count. Like, take a breath, count to three, right? Or we're getting in the car. Get it the car right now. You're not doing it? Ok I'm gonna count to three and you better be in the car. One, two, three, right? And then they're still not in the car. And then it's like, Okay, I'm gonna count to three again. You better be in the car, right? Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Empty threats, right?
Vanessa Kahlon: So for me the biggest tip is I only ask twice, the third time I'm gonna help you. I’m going to help you get in the car on the third count.
Because if you're gonna keep saying the child's name over and over again and not following through, you're just teaching that they don't have to listen to you. You're already losing respect.
Joshua Boswell: Yes. Love it.
Vanessa Kahlon: So that's the key thing, right? There's certain tools that you can use that are in my book, How To Do Parenting With Confidence that you can get that are very specific on… Literally, you can have a meltdown and go to the bathroom and go to chapter whatever and it's right there. Because again, with my dislike... Yeah, I'm gonna give you strategies right there.
Joshua Boswell: Give us the strategies.
Vanessa Kahlon: And it'll be like, clear. It's not gonna be like, Well in 1980 something… we don't do that.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: You need something right then in there, right?
Margie Boswell: Right now, give me the words to say and what to do.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah exactly. Give me the words. I got these one-liners like, Let me know when you’re calm and we'll talk. That's all you need to say.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: Again, it's gonna be their choice when they want to do it. So that's kind of… those are the things I look at.
Margie Boswell: I love it! Those are some great tools.
Joshua Boswell: I got some major takeaways here. So I want to summarize a couple things. And I made notes so I remember. So number one, relationship’s a two way street. And sometimes as parents, we have to be willing to change if we expect the child to change.
Vanessa Kahlon: That's right.
Joshua Boswell: I think that is huge. The second thing that I got out of this is your three R's. Rewind, Redo and Repair. And underneath that is the third thing that I got out of this conversation, which is this incredible difference between when a child has behavior that's maybe not healthy or is not appropriate or whatever. Instead of punishing, we’re teaching!
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: Instead of asking them, Well, what should you have said? Well, they don't know. So let's teach them.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: That's that Repair, Rewind, Redo. So I love that. The consistency that you just talked about is unbelievable.
And that so many things come from self esteem. It's like, They might not be able to accept a compliment because they feel so poorly about themselves.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And one of the reasons, this is the fifth item that I wrote down here. One of the reasons is, we've done everything for them. Like they…
Margie Boswell: We’ve done too much for them that they should’ve been doing.
Joshua Boswell: We've done too much in our desire to love them, usually as parents, we've just done everything for them. And so they feel like they're useless and they don't have any skills and they just need to be taken care of.
Vanessa Kahlon: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And I love how you're like, Give them the credit card and let them swipe it. Something, you know?
Vanessa Kahlon: I actually had a family from India come out, and I had to do a month intervention with this kid. She was 16 and I guess in India, they have their own cook, she had her nanny, she had multiple things. And you know what they went away with from that intervention? She has to make her bed. That was it.
Margie Boswell: Wow.
Vanessa Kahlon: Like… she had to do something for herself so she could feel good versus having everyone do everything for her all the time.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: And that alone made her… like that was a shift in her.
Joshua Boswell: Okay, amazing.
Vanessa Kahlon: You know what I mean? So, it's like… little. And talk about cultures and everything else… And my mom wants to take care of me non-stop, which is great, but I'm also super independent.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Vanessa Kahlon: So that's where, in my teenage years we clashed. Because I'm like, I got this, I don't need you. But this year I’ve had some health issues with my knee and some other stuff happened, and she's been here to take care of me. And I’m like… I'm taking it. And we've been getting along really well, that's her love language, but it just took us, ya know… till my forties to figure that out.
Margie Boswell: There you go.
Joshua Boswell: Well, and that touches on the last thing that I wrote down here that I thought was so powerful and that is parents having this emotional independence. And not seeing themselves… Like, their value is not 100% connected to the child.
Margie Boswell: Not connected to the child’s behavior.
Joshua Boswell: The child’s behavior. Right.
Vanessa Kahlon: And that's what… yeah, and I have a self-care book coming out, Parenting With An Open Heart, which is being able to actually write about the behavior. And then how is it not personal? And what did you learn about yourself?
Joshua Boswell: cool.
Vanessa Kahlon: Because I think if we can separate the behavior from taking it personally, that's where you can have a more open relationship and not feel like, Oh, I'm reinforcing this behavior and I'm doing all these other things… and then other stuff that comes with it. And that disconnect with the child.
Joshua Boswell: Oh man, Vanessa. You are… I’m just amazed at your experience, your depth of insights. I loved the structure. So actionable on everything that you talk about. It’s not like “Oh, here’s a fluffy, philosophical idea that we could apply…” It’s like, No… just, here’s the actual things we do.
Margie Boswell: Here are the actual words to say.
Joshua Boswell: It’s so refreshing. Thank you very very much.
Vanessa Kahlon: Thanks for having me! It was great being here,…
Joshua Boswell: Now, you’ve got… I just want to plug… You've got a couple of books. One's called How To Do Parenting with Confidence, the other one’s called Shut Up and Parent. And then you have a course, Parenting With Confidence. Don't you? Or some kind of program?
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, it's a four-week course and you can just sign up online and we could go from there. But it's on zoom, I'll be starting it.
Joshua Boswell: Awesome.
Vanessa Kahlon: And my dog is… my dog now. Lola!
Joshua Boswell: Yeah…
Vanessa Kahlon: Yep she’s in all my podcasts, you'll hear me yelling at her. If that's the one thing I'm not good with, I'm not a dog Whisperer.
Margie Boswell: Lola.
Vanessa Kahlon: Yeah, yeah. So there's a parenting workshop that we're doing, and my podcast and other things like that. But it was great being on here.
Joshua Boswell: So good. Well, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate all you're doing for families around the world. It's amazing.
Vanessa Kahlon: Thank you.
Margie Boswell: Thanks Vanessa.
Joshua Boswell: Okay, talk to you soon. Bye.