Podcast Transcript
Attendees:
Joshua and Marige Boswell, Dr. Sheryl Ziegler
Transcript:
Joshua Boswell: Hello friends, welcome to the Happy Family Club Podcast. We are so excited to have you here today. Margie and I have been looking forward to this interview for quite some time because there's a lot of things that parents deal with that are challenging and difficult. And being able to simplify those and smooth that out is exactly what our guest does best. So we're excited to have you here. By way of official introduction, Margie will give you an official introduction, but Dr. Sheryl Ziegler is here, and we're just so excited to have you. So thank you very much for being with us today. We appreciate it.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes, thank you for having me!
Joshua Boswell: Yeah!
Margie Boswell: Thank you, Sheryl. We're so happy you're here. And just so everybody knows, Sheryl has worked to create this community for parents to feel included, and with their teens help them work through amazing things in their life. She's the author of this great book, it’s called Mommy Burnout.
Joshua Boswell: By the way, your 10 Signs of Mommy Burnout had me in stitches. It was awesome. So…
Margie Boswell: So great.
Joshua Boswell: And it was like, serious, if you pull up to your house and you feel dread and anxiety, like…
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah…
Joshua Boswell: And other things.
Margie Boswell: You’ve got mommy burnout.
Joshua Boswell: But she's been all over the media appearing in over a hundred news shows, which is amazing. And she's been an instructor, amazing online courses. She's got her book, she’s got a website, we'll tell you a little bit about that at the end of the interview, but we're really excited for all the great influence that she's having. She's got a child and family therapy center right that you got started in '04, which is amazing. She's a doctorate in Psychology licensed professional counselor. We could go on about Sheryl.
Joshua Boswell: We really could.
Margie Boswell: Thank you so much for being here with us.
Sheryl Ziegler: Thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you.
Joshua Boswell: And I… it's not really, it just popped into my mind, but I remember, in terms of your media contributions, I seem to remember that you really have a specialty in taking really challenging things that are happening in the media and then talking about how to talk with your children about that. Like I saw a little blurb that you had about how do we address what's going on over in the Middle East right now? And that's hard. And I saw some of the school shootings you addressed so beautifully, and how do you help children through that? So that's not really the… maybe that'll come up, but I just wanted our listeners to know you are so adept at addressing things that a lot of people kind of shy away from or just our clueless about how to handle. And so anyway, we’re excited to have you. That's why I've been looking forward to this interview. So, thank you.
Joshua Boswell: Okay, so I really want to dig into your insights into the question that we love to ask which is: What's a key principle that, when applied, will help inspire greater family happiness? But before we go there, can you tell us a little bit about your background? Because your list of accomplishments, your education, your contribution to the world is long. And just a lot of people don't put that much time and effort into getting there. And we just wonder what your backstory is for doing all of that. There's got to be a reason. So let's hear Really?
Sheryl Ziegler: Oh yes. We all have a story, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, we do.
Sheryl Ziegler: And so, thank you for the opportunity to share my story. And so… let's see, where do I start? So I guess I'll start by saying that I am the child of a teenage immigrant. My mom immigrated here when she was 12, got pregnant with me when she was 17 and had me when she was just a couple weeks before she was 18. So I had a teen Mom, she was single. We lived in New York City, and truly for the first seven years of my life… a lot of really interesting things. I was raised on government assistance, welfare, food stamps. I never went to preschool. I really just spent a lot of time with family. Spanish was my first language, although I totally lost it, so I'll get to that point on how that happened.
Joshua Boswell: Right!
Margie Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: But I think by all intents and purposes, if you look at me on paper, I had a lot of early childhood adversity. But… This is the big “but” that's very relatable to your platform. The one savior that I had was family.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I didn't know… when you're a child, you don't know that you have money. You don't have money. I mean those things don't matter.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: So what I had was this incredible extended family around me that loved on, me watched me, I never had a babysitter. I just was always with family. And I had one particular aunt who's also my godmother who just always said to me unequivocally, like she said it in a way that I really believed her: You're going to do great things. You're going to do great things. And she that to me so much that I believed it. I actually, truly… grew up like, Well, she says I'm gonna do great things.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: So I'm doing great things!
Margie Boswell: Awww.
Sheryl Ziegler: So, I will say, while those first seven years of my life looked… I was being raised obviously by a young mother and those kinds of things. I just had so much love around me. And so I didn't have formal education around me, we didn't have a lot of things. But I had love.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I know now... I mean it took a long time and being an adult to understanding and appreciating that. Because I only really even maybe analyzed it so much because people would ask me, But how? How did you persevere through so much adversity? And at first, I just didn't have an answer. A lot of times I'd say, I think I was just blessed. I think this is my story. This was the way it was supposed to be.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: Which I still do feel that way. But I also know that there are elements that created this opportunity. So, those are the first seven years. And then I moved out of New York City. An hour north and New York City and had a really different experience where I was not surrounded by lots of family. That was taken away from me. My culture was taken away from me. My language was taken away. And so for those years, it was an adjustment. And I think that the beautiful second part of my story is that while I felt like my family had gotten taken away from me, and I wasn't surrounded by that same level of love and unconditional positive regard, my friends' families took me in.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: So then my friend's families became surrogates. And just… there are things that they said and did that, again, I look back now and I say, I did get the opportunity to tell one of my best friends growing up, her mother. I did get to tell her, I want you to know how much it means and meant to me the things that you would say to me.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Again, very positive. You're beautiful, you're smart. And so that was a game changer too. So, my story is really all over. A lot of different experiences, a lot of adversity, but also a lot of family love. And that is key. Community and family and love is key to at least my story, but I also believe the human condition.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. So I have a follow-up question on that. It's an awesome story, and I want to hear a little bit more on that. But at least in my perspective, we live in a very polarized world. Maybe other people don't feel that way, but I think that there's a lot of polarization out there. And there's a lot of families that struggle… and I think there's a lot of parents and adults that struggle with just seeing the dark side of things, right? And so being able to give that kind of nurturing and love and positive feedback to their children or to their friends that come over or whatnot? Sometimes that’s gonna be hard. I wonder, again, this is maybe a little on a tangent but the question comes to mind, what would be your insight on how parents can sort of shift that lens so they can provide that nurturing? And what would they need to do in order to do that?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah, so that nurturing to their own children or other people's children?
Joshua Boswell: Exactly.
Margie Boswell: Both. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: So both!
Joshua Boswell: I mean, it's like Margie and I are in a situation. We have our 11 children, but our 11 children have a multiplicity of friends that come around, right?
Margie Boswell: Friends come over.
Joshua Boswell: And there's all the associations. And so we find ourselves regularly in a situation where we feel like we're not only parenting our children, but these other children come into our lives that have different family experiences. And we're like, we want to nurture and love on them. So I think that I'd love to hear insights on both of those questions.
Sheryl Ziegler: Oh yeah. Well I love that. I mean so yes, with your 11 children, you have a village that comes in and out of your sphere. And one of the things that I would say is just by showing one another love.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: Just by cooperating in the kitchen or working on a project together, creating a meal. That in and of itself, even if you never said a word to any of those other kids and your own, they're seeing. Their witnessing love, communication, teamwork, collaboration, laughter, maybe sometimes some conflict. And hopefully/maybe some of the resolution. Like, oh yeah, we can disagree on something.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And this is the way we resolve our disagreements. Which could look really different from the way other people resolve or address their disagreements. So it starts as just modeling. Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Modeling is so important. You're modeling family and family time and maybe what meals look like. Whatever meals look like in your house, I assure you look very different in many other people's houses.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah… you are right.
Margie Boswell: Yep!
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes, I'm very sure of that. I think just for the two of you in terms of modeling. And then when it comes down to it, let's just say… This is what I believe, which like you said, maybe not everybody even thinks of it this way. But I love the idea that we are in community and that we can…. whatever it is, talk to other people's kids, at times reprimand other people's kids. I don't mean harshly…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: But I mean saying something like, In our house, we don't speak that way. Or in our house we share right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right? Like, that's what I mean by reprimand. And not everybody's like that. That's something that I think in society people are like, What? Did you say something to my kid? Yes, I did. And say something to mine if my kid is not doing something right, feel free to tell them.
Joshua Boswell: Exactly. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I don't have a problem with that. I mean… and I think we've gotten away from that. And we are so much worse off for that. And that was very much a part of Mommy Burnout, which is we lead to stress and burn out when we think we are doing this on our own.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: When we don't ask for help. When we don't accept that, yeah, feed my child, guide them in some way, or let them know what's right from wrong. And if they come home and they tell me and I see it differently, then that's my job as a parent to say, Oh, well that’s the way they think about it. Here’s the way I think about it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right? Communicate to them. So I just see so much that the two of you, especially, have an opportunity to do, just by being role models. But also hopefully taking it a step further and just living your values in front of other people is one of the best things I think that you can do. Just live your values truthfully, in integrity. It's one thing to say, Hey, these are our values. And it's another thing to truly live them. And I think kids can perceive when people are living true to their values. They’re walking their talk.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I think that's really key.
Margie Boswell: Just being integritous.
Joshua Boswell: Totally. Yeah, children are astonishingly good at filtering out fluff and lies and fake. And ow, they can get to the heart of the matter really quick.
Sheryl Ziegler: They sure can.
Joshua Boswell: Even if they can’t articulate it, they live into it.
Margie Boswell: They feel it.
Joshua Boswell: They feel it. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes, and that's what I was gonna say. Starting at young ages, the reason why they're so perceptive is because they don't have advanced verbal skills.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And so they can't talk their way through things or they're not doing mental gymnastics in their head about, Well, maybe they did this because of… Nope. They just see it for what it is and they experience it in their bodies. They know, Oh when I come over to your house, I feel good. I can't tell you why. I can tell you a good story… a couple of weeks ago I saw a new client. A new little girl. She's eight and she was… I have a swing room in my office and she was moving and she's swinging and that's the intention of the swing room is just to allow kids to move.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And she said to me, about maybe 40 minutes in, I just feel so good here, I don't even know why though.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Why do I feel so good here? So I would say a couple things here and there, and I could tell it wasn't resonating. And I said, Okay, maybe it just feels good to get to talk and that I'm just listening. And she was like, Hmm, I think it's more than that. And then she just kept moving and moving and we never got to like the answer at the end. But because she's eight she could not articulate exactly why she felt so good being there. But she felt it and she just shared it spontaneously.
Margie Boswell: Aww…
Joshua Boswell: I love that.
Sheryl Ziegler: And that is the way kids are. And I'm sure there were multiple things, right? Could have been the way I looked at her, the way I smiled at her.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: The way she was moving probably felt good. She didn’t have to sit still in a seat, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And be stressed that like, I'm supposed to just sit in this chair and answer questions, it was a kid-friendly space. There are probably multiple reasons, but I love remembering that the younger the child is, the more perceptive in truth they actually are.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Margie Boswell: Hmm. I love that.
Joshua Boswell: Wow, that's an amazing insight. I’m so I asked that question. So you're now officially invited to have dinner at our place and you can play on the tree swing in the back as much as you’d lik.
Sheryl Ziegler: Perfect. I will. I will. I always tell people if you offer me something, I will take you up on it.
Joshua Boswell: Sweet.
Margie Boswell: Perfect! There you go.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, next time… do you still have family in New York?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes, yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Well we're halfway between Denver and New York. We're in Arkansas. So come on over. So okay well, thank you. Can you pick up on your story just a little bit more? Because you moved, an hour north, things all changed, and then at some point you made decisions about where you're going to go into school and this amazing counseling that you do. So kind of give us a little bit of insight on that and then we better get to my one core question here.
Sheryl Ziegler: Okay. So, what happened was, I remember I got a journal for my 13th birthday. It was a purple journal that I still have. And on the front cover… you know and it had a lock on it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And you open it up and it's like, name, age, what do you want to be when you grow up?
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I wrote: I want to be a psychologist. I want to be the Barbara Walters of psychology. That's what I said.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, Barbara Walter.
Sheryl Ziegler: I want to be the Barbara Walter of psychology.
Sheryl Ziegler: Like… who knows that at 13? I have no idea. So I wrote psychologist. It was not even spelled correctly. And so when I went into high school and I met… so I was probably in eighth grade then when I knew… guess I knew that I wanted to help people. Listen to people. And then when I wanted to high school and you have your meeting with your guidance counselor, he said, Do you know what you want to do? I said yes, I want to be a psychologist. And he said, Oh, you're gonna have to go to school for a long time. I said, Okay how long? And he said, 10 years. I said, Okay, so where do I start?
Joshua Boswell: Like... Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: It was just, Great, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And I literally did it. I have three psychology degrees. I never skipped a beat. I did everything really pretty fast. I knew this is just what I always wanted to do. And I think that probably comes from having had so many different experiences and going through many things in my life. I think I just had this sense, like people would just say to me, like young, middle school, high school, Yu're just so easy to talk to.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I think because I didn't judge anybody. I'm just not here... It's not my place to judge.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I think that's something that is so rare today. To have a listening ear that you feel is really not judgmental.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: That isn't going to shame you or tell you what to do, but they're just really there to listen. I think that's probably the way I was when I was younger and that just continued. So that's how I got to be a psychologist. And it's kind of great. It's like something… It's not working with my kids, but… My daughter will say, Oh I would be a psychologist, but I don't want to go to school that long. And so, I'm like but you do four years. And she's like, four years… and I'm like, Yeah, and then, I went into a master's, but then I worked for two years… So I try to tell her, You know, and then you can take some small breaks.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: But for me and personality that just worked. Just tell me what to do and I’ll just do it.
Joshua Boswell: I love it.
Margie Boswell: Amazing.
Joshua Boswell: And I love the fact that you had this sense and then you just carried through with it. And I think that there's an enormous amount of power in that focus. And I think there's also an enormous amount of power in looking at the circumstances you grew up in and seeing the value.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: I think that there are a lot of people that might look at and go, Oh my goodness. I had this terrible childhood and that's why I'm so messed up is because I grew up in the Bronx and I didn't have any support and I moved out of town and then I didn’t have anymore support, and I was on welfare, and so…
Margie Boswell: The victim mentality get’s developed.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, and I think that it's really powerful because sometimes we take that victim mentality and we impose it on our children and we create this culture that is just multi-generational. And you opted out of that. And I love the fact that it’s just a change in the story. It's the exact same circumstances that so many other people had in your situation. And you've had this beautiful gift or decision to change that around and see, like, Oh actually it was really powerful. I had this gift of love for my family and I was given this give to love from my friend's parents. And you see this wonderful thing and you decided to use that for people's good. As parents we get to define the narrative of our house, really. And what that story looks like to us and to our children. And I really want everyone listening to this to hear that. This isn't a fluff thing. It's not like… you know, we don't get to decide… I can't drop something and pretend like gravity doesn't exist.
Sheryl Ziegler: Mm-hm.
Joshua Boswell: So we don't get to decide that. But we do get to decide the narrative of how we approach life and how we see things and how we feel about things. And teaching that to our children is really powerful. It's just incredibly powerful as exampled in your life, Sheryl. So… it’s awesome.
Sheryl Ziegler: It is, I appreciate what you're saying. And I do want to say for anyone listening so it doesn't feel like fluff. I don't know that I had this ability to see the positive until I was probably in my late 20s.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I don't know that I ever was also either like victim. I wasn’t that.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I think I saw some of the gifts. I guess I will say that. I think I knew I could relate to anybody. I did go from poverty, then my mom married a New York City police officer. Then I went to struggling to get by but middle sort of lower maybe middle class.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I went from being an only child to the youngest of six. With a step family, the blended family and then another divorce. Then my only half-brother was born when I was 12. Then there was another marriage right? So I've been through a lot. And as a child, during it, it was hard sometimes
Joshua Boswell: Of course. Terrible.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I think that once I just had some space from it and once I was in a different environment and I was studying just human behavior… you're right. Not only did I not have a victim mentality, but when I still to this day here somebody who's 40, 50 years old say, Well, it's because of the way I was raised. I'm like, No, you are in control of your narrative.
Joshua Boswell: Yes. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: You have agency over yourself. You might have to work at that, but this is a mindset. You can wake up every morning and see everything that's gone wrong, or you can wake up every morning and look for what's going right. That is a choice.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I do believe that that is a choice. I also think it's almost like a muscle. You have to practice it. If it doesn't come naturally… but practice. I promise practice will get you there.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And so I do feel like, again, it was part gift and it was also just part… also changing my environment and being intellectually stimulated and challenged in a way that… it just never occurred to me at all to be like, woe is me or anything like that. And then once I became older in my maybe mid to late 20s, I started to realize, Oh! This is a power. This is a power, like I have been through a lot of adversity and that will help me in life. And I just saw it that way. So I had a couple years of some shame and not wanting people to know my story…
Joshua Boswell: Yep.
Sheryl Ziegler: All of that, even just being in New York and saying, I was born in Harlem. I was raised in Washington Heights and I spent most of my time in the South Bronx.
Joshua Boswell: Yep! No use mentioning any of those things, right?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah I just skipped over that part and was just like, Here I am! Living more in suburbia. So it’s been an evolution in like my 20s to mid 30s of really, I think fully revealing myself.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Ziegler: So that was a process. So I do want people listening to know, it's not like I was always this open and self-actualized.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: But now I realize. Now… this is the thing. I can work with anybody and I mean anybody. Because every single one of us has a story.
Joshua Boswell: Totally.
Sheryl Ziegler: We all have a story of loss. There's some loss, there's some tragedy, there's some trauma… there isn't anybody who's gonna get through life without some of that.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: And some people have it more than others. And I realize now that once you have gone through something, if you work through it, you actually have better outcomes.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Ziegler: You are more resilient. So I always say to people who they're like, I want my kid to have more grit. And I say, you gotta go through tough things to get grit.
Margie Boswell: Yeah, it’s hard.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: You can’t get gritty without having some challenge.
Margie Boswell: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: So cool. And what I love is that is you did… You know, you weren’t always this way. But you did make it through, you did evolve, you did progress. And again, what a message of hope. Because like you said, we all can start on that, we can all exercise that muscle, and we can all move forward. So it’s really cool. And your story reminds me… I don’t know how familiar you are with the author C.S. Lewis, but he wrote a book called The Great Divorce. And there's a little vignette where they’re talking about heaven and hell and religious things and what not. But the principle that I love is that he says, No matter what your past story was, when you immediately begin looking towards what he calls the high mountains or heaven, then everything that's ever happened to you before will become a piece of heaven. And he said and if you decide to be miserable and frustrated and the victim, then everything that's ever happened to you before will actually be a piece of hell. And it's a very powerful little thing there. So that reminds me of you. It’s like you did go through a hard times, but looking back as you've refocused that lens, all of it became sort of a piece of your heaven or a piece of your story right now, that's so productive. So thank anyway. Thank you for saying that, totally not where I was planning on going with this interview, but that was like… so powerful. Because we do all face the challenges and the trauma and the difficulties. Nobody gets out of life, out of here alive. We're all gonna go through the struggles.
Margie Boswell: It’s how we respond to it that really makes a difference.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Okay, so…
Margie Boswell: Ask her the question.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah I… Margie’s like, Can you get to this already?!
Margie Boswell: It’s fine!
Joshua Boswell: So I’d love to hear your insights on what is a key principle that, when we apply and live it, can really impact our family happiness? So what's your answer to that question?
Sheryl Ziegler: Does anybody ever cheat and give three answers?
Joshua Boswell: Yes, you can cheat!
Margie Boswell: Yes!
Joshua Boswell: Yes, over deliver for us, Sheryl. We're ready for it. Go.
Sheryl Ziegler: I do want to over-deliver! That's a positive reframe of “I can't focus on one.” I mean… okay, I'll just do a macro, and then a micro. How about that?
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Margie Boswell: There we go.
Sheryl Ziegler: There’s the macro need is, a family needs to be clear on their values.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: And what I say about that is, if I give you a list, which I do have in my office, let's say of 50 values. They’ll all sound great!
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Loving, generous, kindness, patience. You're just like… well, all of these things. And I say sure, there's 50 things on here, but we cannot focus on and prioritize 50 things, right?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: Because that gets us spread thin. That means you're gonna be doing just a little bit of everything if you think I'm gonna be all of those wonderful traits.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Sheryl Ziegler: So I really encourage families to do almost like a family mission statement. The way a company has one. And you focus on three to five. Five is max. Three to me is probably ideal, five is max. And those are your guiding principles. So when you have a 16 year old that says they want to stay out late past their curfew. They asked to extend it. If you're having a hard time making that decision you go back to your family value statement, and you say where does this fall within this?
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: What would my five core values… where would it lead me? Would it lead… maybe being flexible is one of them. Like, we will be flexible and creative, right? And you go, you know, we're gonna say yes. They can stay out an hour later tonight because we're really focusing on flexibility. You know, for an example. Or you have an eight year old that says they want a second dessert. And you go… you know, they’re struggling, maybe they're whining or they're making a scene. You don't know what to do. And so you go back to your family values statement. And you say, Okay we talked about fairness is really important to us. And there's not enough dessert to give everybody who may want seconds seconds. So actually, even though we're struggling a little bit, our family values say fairness and equity is really important to us. So we're gonna say no to that.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: So it's like you're guiding light. It anchors you. And those two examples, they're so different from each other. But obviously the two of you know, on a daily basis… I mean with 11 kids, you're probably making over a thousand decisions a day.
Joshua Boswell: Yep.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right? And they're little. Like oh, I forgot my lunch container, can you bring it to school? Oh, tomorrow I have a project. I didn't tell you. Can you go get me clay? Can you … you know, whatever it is.
Joshua Boswell: All the stuff. Mm-hm.
Sheryl Ziegler: All the things in there from little things to, I forgot something, will you bring it? Still some parents will sit and go, I don't know. Is this a good time to teach them a lesson?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: We tell them all the time to get organized, right? And why will I drop it off for Janie, but I won't drop it off for Jack, right? And that's another thing. I think it's really important that families understand that we are not raising our kids the same exact way.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm. Yes.
Sheryl Ziegler: They're individual human beings, right? So you can have your guiding principles, your three to five values that really anchor you. Of course underneath that you can have lots of other things, but I know that I've shared some of our top values with people and they are different from my very best friends.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Even though we're best friends. And that just means it guides me. That’s all. Is guides me. So I think that's one thing that's really important. And then that's the macro. And on the micro level, I think how to influence those values into your actual life requires presence.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: And what I see are really busy, distracted, stressed families.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Where presence seems like a luxury. Like presence? Really? Do you cook and clean and work and da da da. And it's like, yeah… and even through all the things we have to do, how can we find a way to be present and engaged? I didn't say all day long. I didn’t say for seven hours a day, but that when you are interacting with your children with your family, they really have your undivided attention. Your eyes and your body say I am fully committed to talking to you about this right now.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And if I can’t, I am modeling for you. I say, You know, this sounds like this is really important. Or… It sounds like you really need help with something, and right now I'm not able to do that. In an hour, or tonight, I will be able to do that. So that you're setting your own boundary that when I interact, when my kid, they need my attention, my focus, we need to have a conversation, I am doing just that. I'm not cooking and on my iPad or my phone and trying to get emails out and doing all these other things. That's what I see. I just see very busy, stressed families, and I think we're missing opportunities for connection.
Margie Boswell: Mmm-hmm.
Joshua Boswell: Wow, okay. So the macro piece is having those core values that give us guidance. And then the micro is being able to be 100% present so that we don't… And I think part of it is that these things that come up in our family life all the time. It's like these little micro crossroads that are happening all the time.
Margie Boswell: Every day.
Joshua Boswell: Decisions that the children are making, the interaction that we have with each other… and it’s just this constant, non-stop thing. I have interaction, decisions. And like you said, thousands of, you know, stuff every day. And then being able to be focused and be present. So I love that, Sheryl. That is so very helpful. Can we dive into a couple of these a little bit more?
Sheryl Ziegler: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So I'm wondering about, you know, when you look at… you've got this list of 50 values. How do we guide parents through selecting, down to even the optimal three, right? And what's the mental and emotional struggle that parents go through that you see getting from 50 down to three. And how do you guide them through that?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes, it is a whole process. And I will tell you that some people I know have gone to pinterest. There's like… there’s literally little things where people are like, Values! Family Values. They're like… And they don't do it in the office with me. Sometimes they come and they go, We started it. Look, we did our homework, right? And so what I say to them is don't cross anything off. Because I would say, of the 50 values, there's almost nobody that would say, Oh yeah. Generosity? Not interested.
Joshua Boswell: I don't want that one.
Sheryl Ziegler: No generosity. Cross it off.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: So maybe unlike how you would do it in a company. You probably do start crossing off and erasing things because again, you're trying to whittle down to, what is our mission statement?
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Ziegler: And so I say to them instead of crossing them off, just circle. So first start with the things that they just pop out at you. They resonate most with you. So then they'll circle some and I'll say that on average people will circle… probably between 10 to 15.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: They're pretty good at getting to 10 to 15.
Joshua Boswell: Awesome.
Sheryl Ziegler: And then at 10 they don't want to get any of them off anymore.
Joshua Boswell: It's like, do I have to get rid of kindness or charity or a love?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Which one do I dump here, right?
Sheryl Ziegler: Exactly. It really stretches your brain. So then I engage in exercises with them around, Okay, kindness. Is that important to you? If you were gonna say one last thing to your kid as they're getting out of the car, would you say, Be kind to somebody today?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Or would you say, be inclusive to someone today?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Or would you say, be thoughtful around something today? Right? And so they're like… so then if I give them those choices, be kind, be thoughtful, be inclusive. Pick one.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Because inherently if you're being inclusive, they'll start to play games. They'll be like, I guess if I say inclusive then that is kind… That kind of gets two of those together, right?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: So then they can circle that. So then just basically, I think just really start asking yourself the question, If there was one thing that I felt was most important today, between two, right? And that could be like love or generosity. Oh gosh, I don't know. I really like being generous…. Da da da da da… OK well how do you I show love?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Well, I show love by… I do things or I give things to people. Okay, so maybe love. Is love too broad? Do you feel you need to…? And so those are kind of questions. This is subjective. There's no right or wrong.
Joshua Boswell: Totally. Yes.
Sheryl Ziegler: It's just truly… And I also say we go through ages and stages and reasons and seasons. That's one of my quotes.
Joshua Boswell: I love it!
Sheryl Ziegler: And I say that a lot about just relationships. And that could mean child friendships. That can mean husband and wife. That can mean also child to parent, right? Maybe the values that you pushed really really hard between the ages of five and eight, they're still values to you, but maybe now that they're teenagers you feel like it's not that our values as a family have changed. How they show up might. Like, responsibility, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Five years old? Sure! We want our kids to be responsible. But it feels maybe less consequential than it does at 15 years old.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: So you might reframe a sentence in your mission statement to say, In our family we lead with our hearts and we make responsible choices. Right? It's just an example. Because you might say, our values, but their expression of them has shifted a little bit. Because we've been through a terminal illness, or our kids are older, or we've experienced a horrendous loss and we realize that we want to value quality time more than we had been in the past. We were very focused on character traits but now we really want to focus on the way that we spend time together.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right, so it's not like you change as a person, you evolve with your values and how they're expressed. But it's amazing to have the anchor of doing that when you have a very young family if possible.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: It's never too late, but when they're young… Because then you know, it’s like the young traits are like the character building traits.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: This is the core of who I want you to be. And as they get older it starts to be like, okay, we've got the core down. How do we express that?
Joshua Boswell: Yes love it.
Margie Boswell: So great.
Joshua Boswell: It is great. And I want to go back to your one example… Your two examples. One of them was, yeah, let them stay out. One was the, Nope. Sorry. You don't get the second helping. Off the table. Literally. Ha. But what you're really talking about there is not only defining those… Which by the way, thank you for sharing the insights on defining those, because that what you just walked us through was so valuable. I mean, I've gone through lots exercises with mission statements and values and it was just beautiful how I did that.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Joshua Boswell: So thank you. But then keeping that in the forefront of your mind and applying it. Whether that means applying it where you're allowing something, or applying it where you're not allowing something. And what's in your experience and how to help parents, you know, keep that present and not have it be an exercise we did one afternoon…
Margie Boswell: It’s in a book somewhere.
Joshua Boswell: And it’s like… I think we did that like a few years ago. You know, what was that all about?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes! Well I'm laughing because the families that I've worked with, I know they'll be like, I know, I know, I know. We have to refer back to the family value statement.
Joshua Boswell: Hahaha!
Sheryl Ziegler: But I actually encourage people to, which is funny, I moved and I don't have mine up right now. I just realized I don't have mine up! But have it up. Whether that's put it on a refrigerator, frame it and put it somewhere central in your house. Make it a part of your daily life. I love how in the last… it feels like, I don't know, the last decade or so. It's become very popular, maybe to go to Hobby Lobby or other places where they have these frames and they have sayings on them, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Like, In this house, and in this family, we… And I love that. Because I know growing up I never saw anything like that. Not only in my house, but anybody's.
Joshua Boswell: Anybody’s, yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I didn't ever see words of affirmation up.
Joshua Boswell: Around. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And there is something about that. And truly when you step into someone's space, or you come back home after a long day at school, and you see whatever it is. Whether that's faith, whether that's laughter, whether that's hugs and snuggles… Unconsciously it does impact you. You kind of go, okay, in this family, this is a playful family. They like to play. Right? Or in this family, they are very affectionate. They like to really show love through affection. You can do that, not just through your words, but through what's in your house, through the way that you greet people at the door, the way that you comment about something that you notice. There are many ways to show your values besides just saying them.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Or even just having words on the wall. I love having those… Words are symbols on the wall.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: And I know in our house, we definitely have symbols. And you don’t… You take it for granted. Let's say if you have a heart, or you have a cross, or you have the star of David, whatever it might be, you have a symbol.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: You take for granted what that means, but every day that you see that it does actually shift you. There's a shift.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right there. Oh, I saw it. Yeah. And it could be Oh, you made me this, my kids keep coming to my office and see that I display the little pieces of art and the trinkets that they make for me, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yep.
Sheryl Ziegler: I value you. That's what this says.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Ziegler: I value this. This piece matters to me. You matter to me.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Sheryl Ziegler: And so just remembering that as well the psychology of hanging up kids’ pictures, hanging up their artwork, having symbols that represent your values, are other ways to instill what is important and what guides us.
Joshua Boswell: I love that.
Margie Boswell: So beautiful.
Joshua Boswell: This constant reminder in these symbols of things that are… you know, stay in front of us. It's so beautiful. I’m suddenly remembering, I… Margie and I once visited a guy who's extremely successful. Has a holding company and businesses all over the world. And we sat down to dinner and he had these…
Margie Boswell: Place mats.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, dinner place mats. And I looked at them, and he had the family mission statement and some family values and stuff. He said, oh yeah, every time we sit down to dinner, we’re… you know, we see the reminder of what's important to our family. And I had forgotten about that until you just said that.
Sheryl Ziegler: I'm gonna take that and I'm gonna spread that. I'm gonna do it for myself, too. Maybe at Thanksgiving, even. I love that idea.
Joshua Boswell: Maybe at Thanksgiving!
Margie Boswell: There you go!
Joshua Boswell: I’ll see if I can find… I'm gonna call him and ask him where he got those produced.
Margie Boswell: Get a copy of it. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Because it was really cool.
Margie Boswell: It was laminated so that it wouldn't get messy with the food.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah because, you know… We have a philosophy that we always have two gallons of milk on the table. One to spill and one to drink.
Sheryl Ziegler: See? Let me tell you something about that. Let me give you direct, immediate feedback about that. If I come to your house and have dinner with you in Arkansas and I see those two gallons of milk, you know what that means to me as your guests? It means you accept mistakes.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah…
Sheryl Ziegler: You understand that life is messy. You are forgiving of accidents.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: There's no… right? And truly! But it's a symbol. Two gallons of milk. One to spill on one to drink, says to me, Ahh… I can relax. I don’t have to be perfect here.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah…
Sheryl Ziegler: I just love that.
Joshua Boswell: We’ll just love you however you come.
Margie Boswell: We love you however you come. Come on over.
Joshua Boswell: Spill the milk all you want. So let's talk for just a minute about the micro things. Because you talked about this, being present… I was reminded of, I don't know, a couple years ago Margie and I were on one of our honeymoon trips. We go off together all the time. And so we're sitting in the airport, we’re at the restaurant. And in the booth across from us is this beautiful family. I mean, just… these two little toe head girls that were just cute as a button. And Mom and Dad were both on their phones. And just locked into this, whatever was on that phone. Social media, text, whatever it was. And at first the girls sat there and just were kind of quiet. And then it was like, you could tell they wanted a little attention from Mom and Dad. And so pretty soon, they are all over. They're crawling on the table, they're throwing things. And shockingly…. I mean mind-blowingly… and I'm not judging them, because I have no idea what was going on in their life or where they were at. But Mom and Dad hardly flinched until it reached a boiling point and then Dad freaked, out and then the girls ended up crying in tears, right? And Marge and I are watching this as parents of 11 children being like… And I was like… just give them some attention. Like I wanted to come out of my skin with these people. But I'm reminded that we have so many distractions. What did you say… you said it so cool. We're distracted, we're busy, and we're stressed.
Margie Boswell: Mmm-hmm.
Joshua Boswell: So how do we… how do we turn that around and become present and engaged? What have you seen that’s helpful? And what are some of the barriers that we face in our world today? You deal with so many parents, like… What are some of the barriers a lot of parents face in doing that?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah, I mean this is really almost the core. One of the core features of when I wrote Mommy Burnout. I mean really what I was looking to do was to understand how chronic stress was showing up in women's lives.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm-hmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: Why did I consistently see the same pattern in the same kind of words they were using to describe their lives? And so I really researched. I researched the history of motherhood. Are we the most stressed mothers there ever were? Were mothers before us stressed? How did they deal with it? I was very very interested and curious. And so one of the things that the research really steered me towards, and I really try to share this with everybody is this notion of being busy.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: When we have a lot of choices and when we are “multitasking,” right? Multitasking actually is ineffective, and it's not the right use of the brain. The brain actually is not really set up to multitask the way that we think. We're very proud of ourselves when we can, right? And I'm sure like for you Margie, of course I'm sure you can be a master at multitasking, right? And what I say to people is it's a tool in your back pocket. When I need to multitask, sure. I can multitask just like any other mom. I whip it out and I can do all the things at once. But I use it in case of an emergency, kind of thing.
Joshua Boswell: Love that.
Sheryl Ziegler: But in my general way of being, I try to focus on monotasking. Which is the way that the brain is designed to work at it’s optimal way. And also the way that relationships are formed. When I'm doing X, I’m doing X. I’m not doing X, Y and Z.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Sheryl Ziegler: Because then I skimp out on Y and Z. Something’s not going to go well. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to be short. I'm going to be irritable. I'm going to be very put off if you distract me, right? Because I'm doing 10 things… Don’t you see I'm doing 10 things here at once?! Don't you see?! Right? It's like this feeling of I'm making breakfast, lunch, helping with the last minute homework, trying to put on my own makeup because I've got to get to work myself, like trying to get kids on the bus. And so there is a way. And it changes the tempo of a family when we can say, I'm going to get up, get ready, put my makeup on, be dressed and then I'm gonna come down.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: Then I'm going to assign so and so to do breakfast while I am doing lunch. Because I know my kids can put an English muffin in the toaster or the waffles in the toaster, right?
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Sheryl Ziegler: And that's part of it, too… which is, when I'm looking at the stress in a family, we have this mentality, “We” meaning our collective society in mostly North America, that says I'll just do it. It’s easier and faster. I’ll just do it myself.
Margie Boswell: So true. Yep.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, yeah
Sheryl Ziegler: Like, Oh… I'll put the shoes on and tie the shoelaces. Instead of teaching them how to do it.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: I'll just throw the waffles in because, I don't even know, they might burn them or something. I'll just do it to be faster.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I'll unload the dishwasher because I can get those dishes and I can do it in five minutes. And while all of that is true at times. Again, I take it out of my back pocket when I need to. When I need to, I'll go, You know what, don't even worry about it. Get in the car, I'll finish cleaning up the kitchen real quick. Because I can probably do it in 5 minutes versus maybe the 10 minutes it might take the kids. But what I'm doing is I'm doing so much harm. I'm robbing… First and foremost, I'm robbing the kids of the opportunity to have that sense of competence that every child needs.
Margie Boswell: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right, they wouldn't say, Oh yes, please please me. I want to clean dirty dishes.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: But they would say, yes, yes, I want to be competent. I want to know how to do things. I can do it on my own. I do. I do.
Joshua Boswell: Yes. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: “I do” starts at two years old. I do.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And so it doesn't end, the “I do.” We're like that even as adults. That's why we don't accept help from people.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: Oh no, I got it. Margie, do you need me to pick up the kids this afternoon?
I got it. I’m good.
Joshua Boswell: I'm good. I’ll figure it out.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right? I got it. I can do it. No no… Why not? I'm literally going right past the house. I mean no problem. Right? And we tend to feel bad. Oh well why would I let her take my kid home? She's busy too. She's busy. I'm busy. We're all busy. So I'm putting in a lot of different concepts into one so that people can see why this sounds really basic, Like oh yeah, so she came on and said that we're so busy. I want you to understand how it impacts relationships.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: How it impacts our stress level, how it impacts even honestly intimacy. I want… human beings feel good when we help out. When we help others. It's almost selfish. We get more benefit. The research shows that every time. Me helping you drive your kids somewhere is actually more beneficial to me than it is to you!
Margie Boswell: Mm-hmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: And so you are robbing me of an opportunity if I say, What can I do to help you? Or what can I do this morning? Let me do it. Take me up on it.
Margie Boswell: Allow it.
Sheryl Ziegler: So I would say that busy and that stress… The stress is, you know, we’re at record stress levels. We are at record mental health… We're in a mental health crisis.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: Stress is the root cause of the top three things which are anxiety, depression and PTSD.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: You have stress and unmitigated unmanaged stress. We have stress every day of our lives. Every single one of us. It's a normal part of life. It's when we don't know how to manage it and contain it, ask for help, receive the help. When we think we can just handle it on our own, we get isolated, we get lonely and we get disconnected from those who we desperately really want to be connected with. But if you're not living in truth and you're not connected with other people, there is a lack of integrity within that relationship that will be felt.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: And loneliness and isolation are at the root cause of that stress.
Margie Boswell: Mmm.
Joshua Boswell: And isn't it crazy that we as parents can live in a household with loved ones all around us and feel isolated, stressed, depressed and disconnected?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: It’s like…
Margie Boswell: Wow.
Joshua Boswell: The irony of it… it's just mind blowing and a little bit maddening, right?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes. But because to be in a connected relationship with somebody requires more than just physical proximity.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right, so to be in a real, connected relationship with you, I need to be vulnerable. I need to be honest. I need to be engaged with you. I need to be present. I need to be able to not just tell you what's happening in my life, but also listen to what's happening in your life. So if you think about what it takes to actually avoid loneliness, depression and isolation… and when you break it down you go, Oh yeah. I can see how that would happen.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: Because it takes a lot of little micro steps to be connected and feel like you are in relationship and in community.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Because that's what the opposite of being lonely would be, I'm connected. I feel I belong, I understand my purpose. I wake up every day with a sense of esteem. That's what burnout is… burnout is you eventually feel you are no longer good at your job.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: Whatever your job is. It could be being a parent, it could be being the vice president of a company. No matter what your “job” is, it's the physical and emotional exhaustion that results from becoming cynical because you are no longer good at doing your job. That is the World Health Organization definition of burnout. And so you can be burning out or you can become lonely in a robust household filled with people because you're actually not feeling like, Ah… I'm not a good mom. I'm not a good dad. I'm not a good partner. I'm not really listening.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I'm not even sharing with you what's happening. Like that costs us. That's a cost to us when we're not sharing with someone what's really happening for us.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. And I think that… so what I love about what you're saying is the clarity there. We really have this choice in our families to be distracted and stressed, or connected. And there are tools to do it a totally different, better way, right? And like what you're talking about here about, removing this busy badge. Allowing other people to help at times. Being vulnerable and opening up. I mean, it does seem like work on the front end, but like most things, I think that there's a little bit of a societal lie that's like, That’s lot of work and it's really hard and how do I figure that out and you know, I'll just do it on my own. And the lie there is that that's a better way, right?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: It is actually. In the beginning we know it's a little more work to teach your child how to do the kitchen. But in the long run it's not harder. It’s a lot easier as a matter of fact.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Because the connection of love and the self-esteem and all the things there.
Sheryl Ziegler: Mm-hm.
Joshua Boswell: So it's really powerful and I wonder… You know, if you're a stressed, distracted, disengaged, busy parent. What's an initial high-leverage step that they can take to start to escape that downward spiral. Because I think it is a downward spiral, because like you said, it's like the stress leads to PTSD, anxiety, depression. So it's not just unmanaged stress. It's like a funnel moving people down to the bottom of the swamp, really.
Sheryl Ziegler: Absolutely. Well one of the things is… There's a lot to say, but…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: When we stop normalizing the term, “I'm so stressed.” Like if you said to me, How are you? And I say, Oh my gosh, I'm so stressed out, there's a very good chance that you'll say back to me. Yeah, me too.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: We've now had this normalizing of, Oh, I'm stressed and you’re stressed. And when I do certain presentations, I talk to companies actually around the world. Because now people care about the mental health of their employees. Which is new! And so I'm very fortunate that I get to do that. I say, What we're both normalizing when we have that exchange of, I'm so stressed and you're so stressed, see ya later, have a good day, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: What we're normalizing is, I have a higher chance for having a heart attack and stroke. I have hypertension. I am more likely to get cancer, chronic disease. Like, what if instead of saying, I'm so stressed, I said to you, Well, I have hypertension right now. And I have a greater risk of developing diabetes… right? Wouldn’t you have such a different reaction?
Joshua Boswell: Totally! I mean like whooahhh!
Margie Boswell: You wouldn’t want to agree with it!
Sheryl Ziegler: Right, you would never want to
Joshua Boswell: You wouldn’t say, Oh, that’s great, me too. I'm right on the cusp of depression and a heart attack too!
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes! Great, well have a good rest of your day, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, exactly, right?!
Sheryl Ziegler: So if we can just stop and realize what we're saying, right? Now I don't mean you have a stressful morning and that happens once a week. That's different. I'm talking about chronic stress.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I am chronically stressed. When I am chronically stressed, I truly have a greater likelihood of reducing my lifespan, of having hypertension, stroke, heart disease and diabetes. That's just straight off the bat.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: That's not deep science. We know that, that's medical mental and physical history/health coming together. We know that.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: So A, we need to start it… Like we talk a lot about destigmatizing mental health. I think it starts as simple as just let's stop accepting that we are saying things that are bad for our health. If you said what are you doing about that stress? And I said, I'm smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. You wouldn't say, Well that sounds like a good idea!
Joshua Boswell: Right, like… Good therapy. Nice job, right? NO.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right, you just be like, Well, I wonder if there's something else you could be doing.
Joshua Boswell: Right!
Sheryl Ziegler: And so I do think that the normalization of stress is a real problem in our society.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: We just have normalized it. We have normalized burnout, we have normalized stress. We have normalized hospital fantasies. That came up when I was doing my TedX. I did a tedx talk, Why moms are miserable. And that I put that in there. There are actually tens of thousands of women today, right now, that have a hospital fantasy that says, Please God, let me get into a minor accident or maybe get covid so bad or whatever that I have to go to the hospital because it's the only break I'll get.
Margie Boswell: Oh no!!!
Sheryl Ziegler: Right? That is the hospital fantasy.
Joshua Boswell: Oh man…
Sheryl Ziegler: Let me just get a couple days in the hospital. Nurses will take care of me, and nobody's gonna ask me to do anything, and I don't even have to stand up. Because it's the dread. The second I get home, I feel…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Because we do feel it physically.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: You do feel the physical, you feel muscle tension, you feel these things. And so we've normalized it too much and we’ve also… We're also using maladaptive coping skills as we would call it. And that could be smoking cigarettes. That could be drinking too much wine. That can be scrolling on social media for hours.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: There are things that we are doing. We're attempting to manage the stress, but we're doing it in really ineffective and unhealthy ways. So the number one way, as I did my research, and I didn't know in the very beginning this was going on almost 10 years ago. But I didn't know in the beginning what the answer was going to be. But if I could tell you one thing that is the healthiest thing for you mentally and physically, out of all the things you could be doing, diet and exercise and all the things… it's social connection.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: It is unequivocally social connection.
Margie Boswell: Wow!
Sheryl Ziegler: So they say, there are studies that say, that being lonely or socially disconnected is equivalent to smoking a half a pack of cigarettes a day or eating, I think it's like two double bacon cheeseburgers. I don’t know how they got to this, right? But like the strain on your heart. It also reduces your life by four years. There's such a strain on our hearts and our physical and mental health when we are not socially connected.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: So when I did the TedX talk Why Moms Are Miserable, the answer was because we get married we have kids and we lose our friendships.
Joshua Boswell: mmm
Sheryl Ziegler: We say, I'm too busy. Oh, Margie, I’d love to get together, but I’m too busy. Oh I can't do coffee because I've got a meeting… I've got a deadline I'm working on, right? Or I've got to just go home and clean my messy house. And because we've gotten into this habit, and we all accept it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Oh yeah, well I was busy too.
Joshua Boswell: We normalize it. Yeah.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: Right, normalize it. And so, there's other reasons as well. We are more transient, so people because of opportunities… I say it's one of the unintended consequences of the women's movement is that we do have all these choices where we can go to school and where we can work. And because women, the way we are wired, we're like Oh, I'm gonna do it all! I'm gonna do that and raise a family.
Joshua Boswell: And! Uh-huh.
Sheryl Ziegler: We move around more now.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: So we don't plant down our roots. We don’t have our extended families near us. We aren't raising kids with family or a village. We are doing it on our own and we're outsourcing with nannies and au pairs. We're outsourcing the help that we naturally needed, that's why we were usually raising kids in tribes and families.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Mm-hmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: So there are many reasons, it's not just friendships. It's also family connections. Just relationships in general.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: We walk by so many people… And it's not just a woman's issue, men as well feel disconnected. And we don't realize that that's adding to our sense of unhappiness or depression or loneliness or irritability or dissatisfaction with family life.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Just general, just like, Is this all? That's a comment I used to hear a lot. Is this all there is? You know?
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Sheryl Ziegler: I've got the husband and I've got the kids… I’m really not happy. Is this it?
Joshua Boswell: Is this it? Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: Is this it? Because this isn't as great as I thought it was gonna be. And so I wanted to answer the question: Why? Why wasn't it as great as women thought it was gonna be? And it really… It’s not the only answer but the leading answer is our lack of social and emotional connection.
Joshua Boswell: Connection. Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Connection.
Joshua Boswell: Incredible answer. Incredible study. I’m reminded… One of my clients just had some astonishing success recently and he's the number one influencer on LinkedIn now and he's all this, fame and social influence and all this stuff's happening in his life, right? And he said to me the other day, he said, My friends just stopped calling because I just told… You know, every time they talk to me it's like, Hey, I'm too busy. So that they're afraid to even ask anymore, can we go and hang out and go to dinner or spend time as couples or whatever. He's like, they just quit. And he's like, And I don't know what to do about it. I'm like, Oh… that’s… you have to fix this.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes, well…
Joshua Boswell: I got science to show him.
Margie Boswell: Proof, yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So I'm gonna prove it. Back it up.
Sheryl Ziegler: We do have the science. I mean, really, you could show it to him. But that’s a… I just want to go with that example because there is a phenomenon that when somebody is successful or they've maybe achieved something. You really… when you talk to people at the very top of their game, even including him, and you ask them. So who's in your circle of trust?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Those people don't usually have more than five people in that circle of trust. The circle is small.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: It's really small. So maybe you're just like everybody else, maybe you just graduated college, whatever. You're a young adult, your circle’s pretty big.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: You've got the neighbors, the college friends, the high school friends, the people you do a happy hour with after work. Like… circle’s pretty big. And then it funnels. You get married… got smaller, right? Now you've got… you know, it goes like this. And then once you start reaching the top of your game, people are lonely. That's saying “It's Lonely at the Top”
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Ziegler: It is true. And when you start looking from the outside you go, Oh, they have a career and they’ve got their family. They've got young kids. They've got sports on the weekends… And you start on the outside, those people start going, so these are all the reasons why I can't reach out anymore.
Joshua Boswell: Exactly.
Sheryl Ziegler: I can't be in a relationship with you anymore because I don't have all that going on. I mean, I've got a little, but not all that. And so I do think that people are… The more successful or the more engaged they are with their family lives, that's a measure of success as well. Sometimes the more their outer circle just goes away.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: I think that for people who can do it well, their circles are still small, but they’re tighter.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: They're more intimate. And so that's… I think for that person, he should take inventory of, Who do I really do feel is missing?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: Like, who do I want to be in the small circle of influence? And then how do I strengthen those relationships?
Joshua Boswell: Hmm. Powerful.
Sheryl Ziegler: To me that is key.
Joshua Boswell: That's awesome.
Margie Boswell: Love that.
Joshua Boswell: Well… Sheryl, this has been incredible.
Margie Boswell: We've learned so much. Thank you!
Joshua Boswell: I'm gonna try to twist your arm to have a redo here. Round two. Because there's a lot of stuff to unpack here, and I can tell you've got a lot more. In fact, yeah… Just incredible, what you've shared. So thank you very very much. And I wonder… I mean, you always have a lot of wisdom. So what's the best way for people who aren't familiar with your world to get inside there and to gain some of this? And I know you've got a book and a course… What do you think's the best way to jump into your world? What's a starting point?
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah, I think if people go to my website, which is just www.DrSherylZiegler.com. There is where you can see my online course, Mommy Burnout my book… I'm working on a second book that I'm so excited about right now, which is really focused on middle childhood. So a parenting book about really just six to twelve year olds.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Ziegler: Raising six to 12 year olds and setting them up for the teen years. So that's the intention of that book.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: I do a lot of media segments. Like you said, I was laughing in the beginning when you introduced me. I do at least three a week. And they are basically, How to talk to your kid about… fill in the blank.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Ziegler: So if you want to quick, you know, three to four minute… Four at tops. They're usually three, three and a half minutes of just how to talk to a kid about war, how to talk to a kid about a mass shooting, how to talk to a kid about divorce… All these different things.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Ziegler: My most recent one was just, How to set up Thanksgiving to be positive and not focused on those negatives. Whatever it might be. That's all housed there.
Joshua Boswell: Awesome.
Sheryl Ziegler: So, I have some social media. I'm not huge on social media. But people can definitely just follow me and really get to see, I think, some of the work that I'm trying to put out. In as many places as possible. So thank you for having me.
Joshua Boswell: Awesome, well… we will send as many people as we can to your site and hopefully they'll gain the value that we've got out of it today. So thank you very very much. We really appreciate it. And I've just learned a ton. I've taken three pages of notes. So… we really appreciate it. And so for everyone listening to this, www.DrSherylZiegler.com, go to the site, check it out, get a hold of a copy of her book and look at that there. I know the course is amazing. And your course really focuses on an issue that's huge for so many people and it's like mother/daughter relationships and helping daughters through that critical period of their life from that 6 to 12, 13 year age space. So… invaluable resource there. Because wow, we know…
Margie Boswell: We’ve got five girls!
Joshua Boswell: That is a tricky phase of life.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes!
Joshua Boswell: It’s like, by the way… a few things are about to change.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yeah just a few. Like everything.
Joshua Boswell: Everything. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time.
Margie Boswell: Thank you.
Sheryl Ziegler: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: We appreciate it very much. So, all right, Bye. Thank you guys.
Margie Boswell: Bye.
Sheryl Ziegler: Thank you.