Transcript
Attendees
Sheryl Gould, Joshua Boswell, Margie Boswell
Transcript
Joshua Boswell: Hello friends, welcome to the Happy Family Club podcast. We're so excited to have you here today and we are ecstatic to have with us Sheryl Gould. She is just an amazing individual who, seven years ago, decided that she's going to take a lot of her parenting expertise and working with teens and tweens and help families around the world through an online presence. So we're just excited to have you here. And actually I'm gonna have Margie tell a little bit more about you. But thank you for joining us.
Margie Boswell: Thank you, Sheryl. We love having you here and I think for over 15 years you've been coaching moms, right?
Sheryl Gould: Yes, thank you for that introduction. I'm so happy to be here.
Margie Boswell: Of course! Well also Sheryl’s written a book, SOS! The Technology Guidebook For Parents Of Teens And Tweens. I love that title. Wow. And she's getting ready to come out with another book. We're excited about that, and she's got all these different organizations that she supports. And has helped thousands and thousands of moms and children relationships. So you're making a difference in the world Sheryl, and we're so happy that you're here to make a difference for us. Thank you.
Sheryl Gould: Thank you.
Joshua Boswell: So as you know, one of the things that we love to ask is kind of the secret sauce of happy families from our experts. And we're gonna get to that in just a minute. But before we do, I would love to hear a little bit about your backstory. Because it's not every day that a mom decides, Oh, I'm gonna start coaching moms and creating support groups and then take it online and help people around the world. So what got you to where you're at? What's sort of the backstory to creating Moms Of Tweens And Teens?
Sheryl Gould: Wow… well, it's a journey and a personal one, like so many of our stories are connected with our own struggles and challenges. And my oldest now, she's 33.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And when she hit the tween years, I really started to struggle with her. And she was pulling away, she was angry, she was expressing all of these emotions and pushing back and being disrespectful. And I took her to therapy. I thought, I'm gonna fix her.
Joshua Boswell: Yep
Sheryl Gould: And therapy can be so helpful and… then I would get brought into the session in like the last 10 minutes of the session. And I realized, Oo, I think that it's me. Like… I think that…
Joshua Boswell: Right!
Sheryl Gould: I'm trying to fix her and I think that I really need help. And a lot of my own pain growing up, my own wounds were impacting the way I was parenting her.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And I loved… there was a therapist there that always would come out, she would smile at me and say hi. And I thought, You know, maybe I should go start seeing her and talking to her about some of these things.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And she led a moms group. And she invited me into that moms group after probably a year and thought I was finally maybe ready to join it. And I got in there and all these moms were sharing their challenges and their struggles and supporting each other and challenging each other in really positive ways. And it changed my life. I mean it changed my relationship with my husband, my kids, with myself, with my mom. I mean so much healing happened from this. And then the therapy practice said, would you like to start a group here and we'll train you?
Joshua Boswell: Oh my goodness. That's amazing. Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah, and so I started leading a group with another mom. And so they trained us and it was amazing. And then I’m like, I want to do this. To see people's lives be changed was out of my own experience in my own life and having that transformation happen, that then I went on to start another group outside of the therapy practice.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Gould: And then that snowballed. And before you knew it, somebody said, You have got to start a website.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Gould: It's been a total God thing. Just all along the way, the little pieces/parts that fit in that I'm like, okay, this is what I’m meant to do. And yeah, so it's been an amazing journey and growth process. And I continue to do my own work around it. Because we're never done right? Always working on these things and we're always parents.
Joshua Boswell: No, that's right. And always, always human beings needing to grow ourselves, right?
Margie Boswell: That’s right.
Joshua Boswell: So it’s critical you’re doing that.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So I have a kind of a side personal question because I think it's so fascinating. I wonder if you can kind of think through what was going on inside of you in your mind when you came to the point where you're humble enough to say, Maybe it's me that needs to be worked on? Because Sheryl, you’ve worked with a lot of parents. I’ve worked with a lot of parents. We've talked to a lot of people. I've worked with a lot of business owners. And getting to that point doesn't often happen, and so you recognized that, Oh, maybe I can work on myself. Can you kind of remember back to what brought you to that point?
Sheryl Gould: That is such a good question. I don't think anybody has ever asked me that. I think that I could feel emotional around it. I saw that my daughter was in pain.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And she was hurting. But I was angry.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Like… I didn’t want. It was inconvenient. It was like… You’re making it difficult. You know? And I knew, Gosh, you know… I was a very compliant kid, and agreeable. And then I had this kid that was just a spitfire, strong-willed, breaking all the rules. I'm like… No, you're not supposed to be this way.
Joshua Boswell: right
Sheryl Gould: Go to your room and… and you know, just wanted to like, you know. What do they call it? Get a knot in her tail? What is that anyway?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah!
Sheryl Gould: Like, Come on, get with the program!
Joshua Boswell: exactly
Sheryl Gould: And so I was missing her heart. And I knew that I was getting in the way of really giving her what she needed.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And I think that that was a catalyst too. There was a disconnect there and I was thinking, Why am I having such a hard time supporting my daughter?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And instead, I'm just feeling… and I did not consider myself an angry person.
Joshua Boswell: Right
Sheryl Gould: I was kind and very nice and very compliant and agreeable. So…
Joshua Boswell: So feeling this anger was like what’s that?!
Margie Boswell: What is this!?
Sheryl Gould: Yeah, but it was like this anger of… This is not the way that it's supposed to be.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, I love that answer. And I love that awareness. And you said, how it rolled out and whatnot, and it's a God thing. And I think that it's amazing to me to see how there was enough humility there and enough awareness and discomfort that you decided to do something. And the beautiful thing is then you took it to other people, right? Which is also really cool. And you kind of answered it, but I'd love to…
Again, I want to get to the secret sauce question in a minute, but I mean another follow-up question is you also said that you looked around and you're like, You know what? Maybe I could help other people with this. And I think that's a rare thing as well. A lot of times people find their solution and they're just content with that.
Margie Boswell: Just want to keep it and hold onto it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, exactly, but you didn’t. You said, Let's start another group. Let's do something else. I wonder if there was a driver behind that?
Sheryl Gould: Well you know, it's interesting. I was always the… My mom always used to say I was the one at the party in high school talking to the person that was having problems.
Joshua Boswell: Uh-huh.
Sheryl Gould: I think it naturally came.I think I was just kinda wired that way.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And at one point I was a radio TV film major, but at one point I thought, I just want to go and go back to school and become a therapist. I just was always drawn to personal growth.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And to being in the books and I think that that was one of the ways that I was wired. But I do think that there's something that's very meaningful when we can use our pain for good.
Joshua Boswell: yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And know that our stories, if we can make meaning… and I think it was Henri Nouwen that said, that if we can use our stories and make meaning from them?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: That's a really powerful, healing thing. And so it was part of that, too.
Joshua Boswell: That's amazing. Yeah. And I found that in my life and other people I've delt with. I mean what you're saying is so true. We take that pain and we tell it from a different story. We create healing and growth. And we create solace for other people which is so powerful.
Margie Boswell: And hope.
Joshua Boswell: And hope, yeah. So powerful in our own journey and our own challenges. So kudos for you for doing that. And I think that there's a broader message. I mean, a lot of people listening to this and a lot of the moms you deal with probably aren't going to go start a global movement like you've done. And that's okay. Not everybody's destined to walk large on the history of life, right? But I do think that your story… Number one your awareness. Like, there's pain here, something can change and I can have hope that there's something to change and I'm willing to work on myself.
And the second piece of that, taking your pain and turning that into a blessing for other people, I think is a really powerful message that a lot of people can and should hear. Because even if it's only in our own family circumstance.
Sheryl Gould: right
Joshua Boswell: It’s like… if you grew up in a terrible home situation, you don't have to be a victim to that. You can use that, you tell your story, you can heal and you can heal your children and your family and your relationships and whatnot. And I think that you're an example of that and I think that's a key principle to family success that a lot of people overstep and don't see, right? So… very cool. I'm so glad of your answer on that.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah, thank you.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, so let's chat for just a minute about your secret sauce. We love the question, what do you see as a key principle to family happiness? And I'm just excited to hear your answer because when you talk about challenging parental moments? Tweens and teens like the forefront, it's like… Ahh my kid! In your experience they went bonkers. I mean, I have no idea what to do! I think the world's crazy now. I don't know… And we don't seem to be quite equipped as parents for that, you know, testosterone moment that happens in our boys lives or this puberty section that happens like… wait, what just happened?! So your thoughts on what really creates a happy family and what's your secret sauce on that?
Sheryl Gould: That's interesting because I was thinking of answering it in two different ways.
Joshua Boswell: Oh good.
Sheryl Gould: I think as far as the secret sauce… and this isn't so much what we can do, but just kind of a belief system, is that it is never too late. And that's something that we need. Like, you were using Hope. You were both using that word and Margie. Moms come, and they’re like, It's just too late. Things are too far gone.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And my relationship is so strained with my kid and they're a junior in high school. Or they’re a senior in high school. And they won't speak to me. They hate me. Our relationship is just so inflamed. And I will say it's never too late. And that when we can start learning and growing and learning some of those things that we didn't grow up with. I mean they always say we didn't get a manual.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Gould: And we didn’t. And… learns how to heal and some of those things that we didn't learn that we can do. That's gonna build connection and build a stronger relationship. Things do start turning around.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: So that, I think, is the secret sauce. It’s knowing that and… we can also change generations to come.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Gould: So that is very powerful to think of. I think a lot of us think, Well, I'm never gonna do it like maybe my parent did. Not that they, not saying anything…
Joshua Boswell: right
Sheryl Gould: But it's very humbling being a parent. I'm going… So that's how my mom did it. Thank you.
Joshua Boswell: I know. Right.
Sheryl Gould: That's how! Now I get it, right? But it's also, I'm never gonna do that.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And so I didn't maybe do that, but I was doing it in some way, you know?
Joshua Boswell: Totally.
Sheryl Gould: Totally perplexed. I didn't think I was gonna do that, but I think… You know, we can learn different ways of relating and healing. And it effects… I would say it's like a wind chime. One person changes, you start changing and it affects everybody around you.
Joshua Boswell: I love that analogy of the windchime. What a cool visual that is.
Margie Boswell: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: I had two other pictures come into my mind… or actually one picture and one comment. I love the fact that it's never too late and we can start. If you think about a chain, oftentimes we look back and we see this, maybe a chain of broken families and abuse, or whatever behind us. And we think, Oh we're just part of that and that's our destiny. But we can always remember that a chain link, the first link can begin a new section. And that one link can be strong and create other strong links. And so it's never too late. You can be that. Or in your example the wind chime, you can be that one that starts to move.
Sheryl Gould: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And it's so beautiful. The other thing is on occasion I'll sit down with our children, and I'll say, I need to have a serious talk with you. And they’ll be like, okay, Dad. What is it? Like… I need to tell you that Dad is human.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And I'm still learning and growing. And there's gonna be some areas of your life where I've really messed up. You're gonna have baggage and probably need therapy. And I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. I didn’t try to.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: But ya know… I just am human, so there you go. And I love you and it was well intended, but you're gonna have baggage so, I'm sorry.
Sheryl Gould: There's something really comforting about that, though. In a really weird sort of way.
Joshua Boswell: I know.
Sheryl Gould: I remember being told in a growth group. I was… and the leader of the group, the facilitator. He looked at me and he said, You know, we're going to screw our kids up. You're gonna screw your kid up. And I was both horrified and comforted at the same time.
Joshua Boswell: Right?!
Sheryl Gould: But it’s just true. We’re… you know. We've all… and… I think that that helps our kids too. Like what you said to your kids is, I'm human. I'm gonna mess up.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: I just want to apologize for my shortcomings. I'm working on them.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, exactly.
Sheryl Gould: We're never gonna do things perfectly.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And it is very comforting.
Joshua Boswell: So, a number of years ago I read a book called The Talent Code. I don't know if you're familiar with it all. But it does some in-depth neurological study on the human brain and then connects it with real life examples. And it debunks this idea that people are just born with certain talents. It doesn't debunking it. We know… I mean from our 11 children, they all come to us different. And there is no doubt some of them… we have a 9 year old son.
Margie Boswell: He’s 11.
Joshua Boswell: He's 11, but when he was 9, he picked up a pencil. Thank you babe. He picked up a pencil and started drawing and we were like… what is this?
Margie Boswell: Where'd that come?! Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: We have a 17, almost 18 year old daughter who sat down and taught herself how to play piano and now she's practically a concert pianist. It's like… I can't even pluck out Mary had a little lamb. But at any rate, this book The Talent Code, it looks at the formation of neurons and what are called myelin sheaths in the brain and then the nervous system. And they've proven scientifically that you can create new neurological pathways and myelin sheaths and new habits literally until the day you die.
Margie Boswell: Keep learning.
Joshua Boswell: So you can keep learning and keep growing. And your message, your first principle about there's always hope is powerful and it's scientifically proven. Right? And and so I love and appreciate that. So you said you had two answers for us. So what was the second one?
Sheryl Gould: well the second one is, What can we do that’s going to make a huge difference in our family?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: To create a happier healthier home? And it just sounds so basic but it really gets down to listening.
Joshua Boswell: Huh!
Sheryl Gould: And I find that it's really hard. It's just so hard to listen.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Sheryl Gould: Especially as a parent. Especially when you have teens and teens because they say the darndest things sometimes. To hear what they say, we can have so much reactivity.
Joshua Boswell: Yep.
Sheryl Gould: And yet, I think that is what causes the biggest disconnect.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: I can attest to this personally, but I also see it with so many of the moms that I work with. It’s that… and I don't know what it is about the culture. I don't quite understand where this came from. That we are such a culture of… I'll say parents. Moms and dads, but I think it's more women. Where we blame ourselves if our kid is not… You know.
Joshua Boswell: Ohh…
Sheryl Gould: We put so much responsibility on ourselves if our kid is falling short in some way, or they're not thriving in an area, or maybe they're being disrespectful and we're blaming ourselves and taking that upon ourselves.
And in that process, what we end up doing is we end up giving a lot of advice. And we focus on the negative. Like, this over here, they're not doing this. So this needs to be tweaked. And then maybe they're doing this and I don't like this and this needs to be tweaked. So we end up focusing so much on our kid’s negative… on the negative. And so they tell us something, like they get in the car and they had a bad day and they hate their math teacher.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Gould: And we immediately jump in and start telling them, maybe why they shouldn't hate their math teacher. Or that's not very nice to say about your math teacher. Or… rather than just listening and getting curious about it.
Joshua Boswell: mmm
Sheryl Gould: And so I see that as a real breakdown in communication is the giving advice, the nagging, the lecturing or the… rescuing.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Those we tend to do rather than hearing what they really have to say and being curious about it.
Joshua Boswell: Okay, so you said being curious… why? And by the way, I love this advice.
Margie Boswell: Love it.
Joshua Boswell: And I just want to say, guilty as charged. I'm an amazing lecturer. I'm just so proficient at it.
Margie Boswell: He's got some really good ones.
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah. I’m great at it.
Sheryl Gould: Well and if they just listened, life would be so much easier!
Joshua Boswell: Yeah!
Sheryl Gould: It would all go smoothly, their lives would just be fantastic, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, exactly! And I think, too... and I want to come to your curiosity point because it's such a fascinating approach to listening that I'm not sure that I really explored before. But I think too, there's something about our society… We're a rapid to be offended, high contentious sort of anti-civil world nowadays, right? It's like, Well, you said that. You offended me. And then we want to jump on and start defending and counter attacking and we see it everywhere. And I think that parents maybe are picking up on that and children sort of expect it, and they're ready for the counter attack. And teens and tweens are awesome at counter attacks. And there yeah,…
Sheryl Gould: Oh…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah they're good. Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Not that I know this personally. I'm just saying.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah I say they’re like turtles or they're like cats. So if you come… they're expecting that advice. They're just on guard for it.
Joshua Boswell: right
Sheryl Gould: And they think like, Oh, it's coming. And you can see the body language.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And then you know when you do it. Because all the sudden it shuts down the conversation. And it's like they're back in their shell.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And they're all pulled in. And so when moms start listening, all the sudden they start seeing their kids’ head start peeking out of the shell. Oh, I'm not gonna get this barrage of advice. Or dad. He’s not gonna give me all this advice. And so they start talking more.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And I don't know who… I have to Google it and see who came up with it, but there is an 80/20 rule like, listen 80% of the time, talk 20%.
Joshua Boswell: mmm Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And that… just when moms start doing that, it makes a huge difference.
Joshua Boswell: Unbelievable.
Margie Boswell: I love that.
Joshua Boswell: I'm obsessed with 80/20. It’s like… awesome you brought this up. So, tell us about the Curiosity thing. Because I think it's easy to react.
Sheryl Gould: Mm-hmm
Joshua Boswell: Especially if it violates our standards or our little manual for how they're life “should be.” Or if it's something that's socially embarrassing. Or… you know. We have all these parameters as parents. And if they say something or do something that steps across any one of those lines, I think that the natural reaction is like you said, to react, to fix, to tweak, to adjust. So how do we shift that and get curious instead? And what does that kind of look like?
Sheryl Gould: Yeah, well I think it’s so easy to do! I think, my gosh, it's so easy to do, to react.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: So it's hard. I don't want anybody to think this is easy. .
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Gould: I think one of the things that can be helpful is noticing.
Joshua Boswell: Uh-huh.
Sheryl Gould: When you want to and going, Oh my gosh, what am I…? We do this whole exercise of… but you really have to slow it down. What am I feeling? Usually we're afraid. Usually there's something that we are believing. We're attaching something to the behavior. And a lot of times that's what psychologists call a fortune telling.
Joshua Boswell: Oh! Mm-hmm.
Sheryl Gould: So we’ll fortune tell. So something happens and we're attaching meaning to it and then we're playing it forward.
Joshua Boswell: mmm
Sheryl Gould: So for example, my kid is flunking math, they did poorly on a test.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: They're not really doing well in math. And you can play it out. They’re never going to go to college. They're never gonna amount to anything. They're always going to be lazy. They're gonna be like Uncle Bill. And then the reaction becomes really big.
Joshua Boswell: Right!
Sheryl Gould: So I think noticing, What's the story I'm telling myself? So I think that's always really helpful to reflect on. But also I think we assume so much.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: We assume we know. And I would say, over the last year I've been like, what if I don't assume that I know what anybody's really saying? Like my husband or a client or a mom in a group or a friend. And I just say, Well, explain to me exactly what do you mean by that?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Mm-hmm
Sheryl Gould: Or something to that effect.
Joshua Boswell: Mm-hmm
Sheryl Gould: They usually tell me something different than what I assume. And I’m always just blown away by it. I'll say to my husband, Well, what do you mean by that? He'll tell me and I'm thinking, I would have never!
Joshua Boswell: Never!
Sheryl Gould: I’m just always surprised. So I think, too… we assume so much about our kids. Rather than saying, Okay… because they can say something maybe it goes against our values.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Or we think it does. And we say, well tell me about that? Like, I don't believe in God, I don't think God's real.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And then we can go, Ahhhh! Oh my gosh! Versus, Oh, tell me about that. You feel like you're not believing that God is real? And then they might open up and say, Yeah because I just have seen like this has happened and God's just allowed it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And if… if He was real then He wouldn't allow that to happen.
Joshua Boswell: right
Sheryl Gould: And then we can affirm like, Yeah, that makes sense that it feels like that. That's a human response a lot of times
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: When we think like, Why are You allowing this? And that makes for such a better connection with our kids' conversation than just being like, What do you mean!?! You don't believe in God?! That is one of our values in this family! But we ignore them. We just assume. And it’s usually not… they're saying what we think they’re saying. They’re saying so much more if we just were willing to listen to it.
Margie Boswell: And maybe they just don't have the vocabulary to really express what they mean, too.
Sheryl Gould: Exactly because they… usually they don't.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And in fact, my oldest has written quite a few blog posts for us that are very humbling. And that's what she says is, I could not articulate, back then, how I was feeling to be able to tell my parents how I was feeling. But I can now. And so this is what I want you parents to know.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hmm.
Sheryl Gould: And one of the things that she says in one of the articles is if you freak out, I will not want to tell you. If I expect you're going to freak out.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And my mom freaked out a lot, she says. But she's grown a lot, too. And the article I like oh… I’m grateful she added that part in!
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. yeah, the caveat at the end: But she’s growing. It’s fine. I love it.
Margie Boswell: Honesty from our children is great.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: I love the pattern of how you did this. Because you did a couple of things. First of all, you became aware. It's like… Oh, maybe I am freaking out and lecturing, right? And second of all is that you had an interrupt. It’s like, well, maybe it's different than what I think, right? Maybe I'm assuming here. And so let me ask a follow-up question. And then you mirrored the question back. It's like, oh… tell me about how you're not feeling like you believe in God? Tell me about that. Right?
So you mirrored the question back in a non-judgmental way which was beautiful. And then you listened and then you reaffirmed. So like, Oh, you're feeling this, which is another clarifying question. And so this pattern that you have just walked us through is absolutely spectacular. And I love how then that follows up was just a curious inquisitive conversation with your child. And really what I think… I mean, I’m just hearing you say that and I'm putting myself in your child's shoes. I'm thinking, Oh, mom actually cares.
Margie Boswell: Understands me.
Joshua Boswell: And I'm not evil and she's just listening and understanding me and like, it feels so much safer and better. It's just so cool, Sheryl, that you do that.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah. It does make a huge difference.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And we're not always going to do it perfectly. And we can even call ourselves out. Like, I'm really gonna work on being a better listener.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And not freaking out or, I'm really gonna work on not giving that advice. And one thing that we do also around the advice is we give unsolicited advice.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, right.
Sheryl Gould: We don't ask them. Do you just want a friend and have me listen, or do you want to know what I think?
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Sheryl Gould: And my family has a joke that they'll usually say. No, I don't really want to know what you think.And then they’re like, but Mom gets it in there anyway. So I've been guilty of that. Because it's really hard, because we have such good advice, right?
Joshua Boswell: Right!
Sheryl Gould: But it's not their idea and with tweens and teens that doesn't work so well.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Because it falls on deaf ears. And so if we can say, Well what do you think? Or what do you want to do? Or do you want me to support you? It's gonna be their idea.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And so it ends up going so much better because then they have that autonomy. They feel more in control. They don't feel like we're trying to put it on them.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah. And I think that this is also super conducive to non-rebellion. A lot of teens and tweens get this rap of being rebellious people. And it's like, Ah… they got to this age and then they just freaked out and then they're rebelling against everything that our family holds dear.
And I think that maybe, again, before I say this, I want to… the big disclaimer is: No judgment on parents. We're parents, we all get it. It's like… we're just on this journey figuring this out and I already confessed I've messed up my children. And they're gonna need therapy. So like… but sometimes we need to look in the mirror and go, well actually, is the child rebelling or am I pushing them away? And I think that’s two different things.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah. Yes. And because they want that autonomy, we hold it as rebellion. And yes, is it rebellion? Probably. I mean if we want to call it that. But it's also that they want that independence and autonomy. And the more that I was trying to control my daughter, the more that she was feeling like she wanted to rebel.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And it became the self-fulfilling prophecy until I started learning how to do it differently.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And being more curious to know her, and finding out that she was having a really hard time, and she didn’t feel like I was safe to talk to. And so if we're trying to control them, which is usually because we're afraid in some way, so we want to clamp down and control them. They are going to want to rebel, they're gonna push back on that.
Joshua Boswell: And have you found… what do you find is the relationship between your view of them…? Like you said we make all these assumptions and so… And we run to the drastic, nuclear explosion end of this thing really fast, right?
Margie Boswell: Really fast.
Sheryl Gould: Oh yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So what have you found in terms of your viewpoint of them and their response to you? Because I think that sometimes we start… We make assumptions about who they are, and then we act accordingly, then they react. What have you seen is that relationship there? In terms of our view of them and their reaction to us as parents?
Sheryl Gould: Gosh, that's a good one. We are the mirror. And that we hold up this mirror to our kids. And I think that we have to really challenge ourselves with how we're seeing them.
Joshua Boswell: Ahh. Did you say we are the mirror?
Sheryl Gould: Yeah we mirror back what we believe about our kids. And so if I am mirroring that I don't trust my kid.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Then my daughter said, I didn't feel like you trusted me.
Joshua Boswell: Uh-huh.
Sheryl Gould: And so then I was like, Well then why? She's not thinking I'm trustworthy and so she was more apt to act out.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: So very interesting, my youngest was nine years younger, and she said, You always told me that you really believed I had the ability to make good choices. And that I was wise.
Margie Boswell: Hmm.
Sheryl Gould: And she said… You know… She definitely made some mistakes and some poor choices, but she said, But I always had that in the back of my mind.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Sheryl Gould: So I knew that you and Dad believed in me and trusted me. And so I didn't want to step over that line. And so I think that is speaking to what you're asking.
Joshua Boswell: Yes, it is exactly. Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And our kids pick up on it. So if I'm looking at my kid they're lazy, and then I'm angry because I think they're lazy… Versus okay, what is going on with my kid?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: You know, what my I do. That's going to motivate, or what am I doing that's demotivating?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: It's looking at it differently. From a whole different angle.
Joshua Boswell: And I think what you're saying… this is the wind chime thing that you're talking about, right? Like… you're shifting the perspective and it's causing some things.
Margie Boswell: Effecting everyone.
Joshua Boswell: It is, and what I love is that I have a firm belief that our children really really love us and they want…
Sheryl Gould: All of them.
Joshua Boswell: They want our approval, they want our relation relationship. They want the connection there. And I think they want to intensely… and your comment. I'm just thinking of your comment about there's always hope and it's never too late. And I think that's because there is such a powerful desire to want to connect with and to be loved by and to love our parents. I come from a challenging family situation and most of my siblings won't talk to my dad.
Sheryl Gould: Hmm.
Joshua Boswell: And I've gone over backwards to forgive, because I really want a relationship with my dad, right? And when I do stuff, I like a compliment from my dad. It makes me feel good. I'm almost 51 and I like a compliment from my dad. So they want to feel that. And what you're saying is that we have such influence in their lives, but we have to deal with it with kid gloves. It's got to be done lovingly.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah, yeah.
Margie Boswell: So gently.
Joshua Boswell: And gently. Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Well I love that you're saying that because our kids want to do well.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah!
Sheryl Gould: They just lack skills. If there's an area they're lacking skills to do well because maybe they haven't learned how to be organized.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Gould: And then you’ve got all the brain stuff going on, you know, the prefrontal cortex isn't fully working.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: So that's the executive functioning. So some kids are just… they're going to have trouble remembering stuff.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Gould: And some more than others and… I can't imagine you have how many teens in the house?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: So we expect so much, versus kind of getting back to what I was saying, focusing on those positive things. Like looking at all the good stuff that they're doing and affirming that.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Because what we do focus on grows. And if focusing on the good stuff, they're gonna want to do more of that, versus focusing on what we don't like or what they could be doing better.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm-hmm.
Sheryl Gould: So that's a big one.
Joshua Boswell: So another question for. I mean along these lines this listening skill. I mean, the old poem, put the fence up on top of the cliff or the ambulance in the valley, right?
Margie Boswell: Which one?
Joshua Boswell: I don't know if you’ve heard it..
Sheryl Gould: Yeah, that's a good one. I've never heard of that before.
Joshua Boswell: Okay, yeah that's a good one. So should we put the fence on the cliff or put an ambulance in the valley? Right? So I know that a lot of times parents with tweens and teens, they're dealing with the ambulance in the valley. I mean, stuff's rough already.
Margie Boswell: Mmm-hmm.
Joshua Boswell: And I watched my parents go through this. I had an older sibling that was a severe drug and alcohol addict. And from 14 on just exploded our family in crazy ways. And so I'm wondering what your thoughts are in terms of applying the listening factor in that scenario? Where they're just in a huge, contentious, crisis sort of environment. And what's your insights for parents that are there and what hope do we have in terms of either rectifying that or creating some stability? What are your thoughts on that?
Sheryl Gould: Yeah. Well again, there's hope.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And that's really hard. It's really hard.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And it feels like you're just buried, you’re exhausted and despairing and discouraged and confused… You know, all those feelings. And despair, feeling lost, feeling like nothing I'm doing is working. So there's a lot there. There’s a lot of components to that. But I would say that focusing on the relationship first is really important.
Joshua Boswell: Mm-hmm
Sheryl Gould: I mean if you're speaking to a kid that's out of control. What do you do when your kid is totally off the rails?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: I think you have to get support for yourself, number one.
Joshua Boswell: Oh I love that.
Sheryl Gould: Like I would say don't be alone in it. Because you’re not the only one. You might feel like you're the only one, I think social media has really taken a toll on moms because they see so much posted and then they get so discouraged.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Like, Oh, they look so happy. And I say, Believe me, I know that it's not what it looks like!
Margie Boswell: Mmm-hmm.
Sheryl Gould: There's a lot going on behind the scenes. And everybody's putting their best pictures up on social media. But you can feel really isolated or concerned that somebody might judge you.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Gould: Or you're already judging yourself as being such a bad parent, and this is my fault, and you know, “woulda, shoulda, coulda.”
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: I would say reach out and get support. There's other moms, there’s other parents that are going through that so that you feel like you have a sounding board. Because we just need a place to go and dump it out so we don't take it out on our kids.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And I always say in our groups, Like… we're there to hold the bucket for you. And you just get it all out. So that you can go back and not take it out on your kid. You've had a place… Or your husband or your wife. Because sometimes moms are like, My husband is so sick of hearing me talk about how I'm worrying about my kid, but I have another outlet. So I would say that's where it really starts. Is just having some place to go so you feel less alone.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: That will also bring anxiety down because then when you hear other parents and what they're going through…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And you know, Oh, maybe my kid is not as off the rails as I think! Maybe some of this is actually a little bit of teen rebellion. You can feel better. That's certainly what happened with me. I was like, they're all talking about similar things and I thought this was just me! You know?
Joshua Boswell: I was sure that this happened because I'm such a terrible person, right? But this is just life.
Margie Boswell: Just the nature of it.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah, we think it's only us and really that was a huge one for me.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: So I would say that's key. And then to really focus on, Okay, there is something… When our kids are acting out, there's something more going on.
Joshua Boswell: Ohh…
Sheryl Gould: So I think that's where the curiosity comes in, that there's something that's happening.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And so if we can look compassionately on what might my kid be needing? What might be going on underneath the surface? Be more curious about that. And focusing on the relationship. Things to do start slowly turning around.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Sheryl Gould: I cannot tell you… We just closed our membership group. And we came off of this workshop series that I did. And moms are in there now, and they've already, in a week… All I've been doing is trying to listen and I cannot tell you the change.
Joshua Boswell: Unbelievable. Wow
Margie Boswell: Aww
Sheryl Gould: So just starting little by little to think about what might my kid be needing? And how can I listen? And of course dumping out our own stuff is really… To be able to be more present.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Because we got to get rid of our reactivity.
Joshua Boswell: I have this picture in my mind of… just take the plutonium rods out of the nuclear reactor. It’s like…
Sheryl Gould: Yes!
Joshua Boswell: Let's just defuse this thing. Because I can't blow up every single time my poor kid has a problem.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: This is an amazing process you’ve just walked us through. And I love this starting point of self because. Because if you're wired up yourself, it's so hard to be present and not react with your children.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Then first of all, I love how you said, Well, the first thing you do is fix the kid. You did not say that, right?
Sheryl Gould: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Awesome, first thing, get support for yourself. I love that. The second thing is, get curious and listen, and then work on the relationship with the child. And figuring out in that listening phase of, Wow, maybe there's an underlying problem here. I mean, I think about… it's like, we've had children, surprisingly, who have come and have been like look, Oh look, I just cut my finger, or I've got a sliver, my hand hurts, or when they're really little it's like the baby’s are crying. And a lot of moms don't realize, look at your infants crying, there's only a couple reasons. They're hungry, their stomach hurts or they got a full diaper.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: But there's a reason the kid’s freaking out. So start triage and solve the stuff. Don't freak out on the kid because he's crying, right?
Sheryl Gould: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: And when they get to be teenagers and tweens, we forget. It's like, Oh… they're freaking out probably because there's something going on, right?
Margie Boswell: There’s a problem.
Joshua Boswell: They don’t have a messy diaper anymore so we can't smell it as easy.
Margie Boswell: See the blood on the finger.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah we can’t see the blood on their finger.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: But something's happening, and your insights to identify that are really cool. Yeah, really really cool. Because then you can deal with source, core things.
Sheryl Gould: And if you don't know, it's okay.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And your kid’s not usually going to know what's going on with them either.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Sheryl Gould: But just kind of knowing something else is going on that I might not see here? It changes the way that we… often that we will come at them with a different energy. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Totally right.
Margie Boswell: React differently. Right.
Joshua Boswell: Amazing, amazing.
Sheryl Gould: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Well I think I have like 200 more questions for you. However...
Margie Boswell: Out of time.
Joshua Boswell: We probably need to wrap up… I wonder if there's something that you would love… A question I should have asked you or we should have brought up that you would love to talk about. Or a little bit of wisdom there. And then before we go, I want to point people to how they can get deeper into your world. Because I guarantee you somebody's gonna listen to this and be like, Oh my goodness. I need a support group. I need help. I need better tools. I need to understand how to listen. And for 15 years you’ve figured out how to do this. And I think that they ought to step into your world and just figure it out like skip the learning curve here, people.
Margie Boswell: Learn with Sheryl!
Joshua Boswell: Sheryl’s got it, right?
Margie Boswell: Yes!
Joshua Boswell: So… anything that I should have asked you or insights you would like to share with this before we kind of close up here?
Sheryl Gould: Mmm… I think this is… I guess I would say, don’t be surprised. I think this is another kind of thing that often crops up with moms is, don't be surprised if your kid’s upset. By you saying no to them.
Sheryl Gould: Or you setting a limit with them, or whatever it may be. Because they're gonna get upset. It's okay.
Joshua Boswell: Okay.
Sheryl Gould: I see that a lot, like, I'm trying to tell them why I've put this rule in place or why this is and they just will not see.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: And they don't understand and so what moms end up doing is they're trying to convince them why this is a good thing.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: Or dads! I’ll say dads too. Are trying to convince them why this is a good thing for them. And they're just not going to say, Okay, thank you so much. They're just not going to do that. And so I think that's just another thing that I was thinking about as you were talking. That, just know… and they're going to make mistakes.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: They're gonna mess up. That's how they learn. So don't freak out when they make a poor choice. Whatever it may be, it's gonna happen. And it's… our job is to be there and to just be listening to them, helping them to process it. Because they know so much more than we give them credit for.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Sheryl Gould: And usually they feel when they feel, when they mess up, they feel so badly about it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: So if we're just reaming them out, they don't really have to feel it. And they're usually already feeling so badly about it. It might not show you that they do, especially if your relationship is not in a great place. They're not going to give you that satisfaction just because they're hurting. But just knowing that they, like you said, they need to have that love and that acceptance, and know that we're their safe place.
Margie Boswell: nice.
Sheryl Gould: So I'll end on that note.
Margie Boswell: Good advice!
Joshua Boswell: That was worth the whole interview put together! Awesome. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
Sheryl Gould: Well thank you for having me.
Joshua Boswell: How do we get people into your world? Do you have a downloader or a newsletter or what's the best way to bring them to you?
Sheryl Gould: Well the best way would be to go to www.MomsOfTweensAndTeens.com.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Sheryl Gould: We're actually starting… I don't know when this will air, but they can get it no matter when it is because they can go to the workshop. We’re redoing a lot of things but they can go to the printables and the workshops. We have free resources on our site. And in the newsletter tomorrow that's going out we're doing a whole gratitude challenge.
Joshua Boswell: mmm
Sheryl Gould: And so you can print them out and they’re affirmations for your kids and things you're grateful for. And then we're following up if you people want to start gratitude chart with your kids. So we’re doing a whole thing on that.
Joshua Boswell: Okay.
Sheryl Gould: And we just have lots of free resources and ways that they can get connected. They'll see the podcast on there. Yeah, they'll see they can email me at Sheryl with an “S,” Sheryl@MomsOfTweensAndTeens.com. So lots of different ways that they'll find on the website. And to sign up for our newsletter, they can sign up there as well.
Joshua Boswell: Awesome! We'll make sure to include those links and get people there. I just want to say a huge thank you. I love your openness, your down-to-earth advice, your insight, your joy. It’s just been so great. And your wisdom, obviously, it's just spectacular. So thank you so much. And thanks for the good that you're doing for families in the world. Families need it today, moms need this today. So thank you for your work. Really appreciate it.
Margie Boswell: Really good. We sure appreciate it. And I want to go and apply some of these things! I want to be more curious with my kids now. So great! You gave us some great ideas. Thank you, Sheryl.
Sheryl Gould: Oh thank you. This was so much fun to talk to both of you. And thank you so much for having me on the show.
Joshua Boswell: Absolutely. We'll do it again. Take care.
Margie Boswell: Thanks. Bye.
Sheryl Gould: Bye bye!