Podcast Transcript
Attendees
Joshua Boswell, Margie Boswell, Russell De Vos
Transcript
Joshua Boswell: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Happy Family Club podcast. We are ecstatic... I mean, I can't even tell you how excited we are to have Russell De Vos back with us. And you want to… I mean we introduced you before, but those who didn't hear your earlier session, maybe Margie can introduce Russell real quick?
Margie Boswell: Sure! Russ De Vos, thanks for joining us again!
Joshua Boswell: Yeah!
Russell De Vos: Pleasure.
Margie Boswell: Yeah, we heard your story last time we interviewed you, we had the podcast, and it was incredible. We’ve referred back to that quite a bit.
Joshua Boswell: I’ve listened to it multiple times and cried multiple times just with sadness and with joy.
Russell De Vos: Wow.
Joshua Boswell: You’re just amazing. So yeah.
Margie Boswell: Russ De Vos. He's a former Pastor, award-winning salesman, father of three, right? Did I remember that right? Three children?
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Margie Boswell: Yeah and his wife Heather, out of the Seattle area.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: He's the founder of catalyst coaching, which is really focused on helping parents of defiant and delinquent and drug abusing teens.
Russell De Vos: Nailed it.
Margie Boswell: So he has got a lot of great information for us today. We're so excited for you to share some tips and tricks and helps for parents out there struggling with those same kinds of challenges. Thanks for being here Russ.
Russell De Vos: You are welcome. I’m excited.
Joshua Boswell: So, a little bit of personal background just for a second on my life. And why I think it's just so valuable for us, what we're going to talk about today, Russ. I think I mentioned to you before, but I grew up in a world that was pockmarked with drug abuse, defiant behavior, and all kinds of things. From siblings to aunts and uncles. Both my grandparents, grandfathers, were severe alcoholics and all the range of dysfunctional behavior that went off that. By the way, I'm saying this. I just want to make sure I make it perfectly clear: I love my family more than words can tell. So none of that’s derogatory.
Russell De Vos: Mm-hm.
Joshua Boswell: But I saw firsthand the challenges. I remember one small little snippet there, one day my oldest brother had asked my mom if you could go out some friends to party. She told him no. And they pulled up and he started walking out. And my older brother picks up a baseball bat and runs out and steps between my brother and his buddies. And they get into an altercation in which my brother beats him with the baseball bat and breaks his arm.
Margie Boswell: Whoah.
Joshua Boswell: My brother still gets in the car, leaves and ends up going to the hospital, gets his arm fixed and then, you know, ended up in jail for some drug stuff. And this was a small little window. And I remember sitting in my front room next to my mom and just seeing… just wretched heartache and pain and suffering from this swirl of stuff that was going on.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: So today what I know will happen is, you have tools to give parents hope. And I want to dive into those in just a second, but I want to say one thing. In those days, me as a brother and my mom as a mother and a caretaker… And I've got other siblings that have had deviant behavior and drug-related problems. Luckily for some reason, I personally escaped that. But I didn't escape the consequences of that.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: But here's the thing, Russ, that I noticed. We all had the best interest in mind. Like we literally loved… I loved my siblings. My mom loved them beyond measure. We wanted to do what was best for them. And looking back now, 20, 30 years later, I think that we did more damage than good, right? Because we didn’t know. I think that our perspectives and our attitudes were just… we didn't know how to deal with this situation. We didn't have the tools, we didn’t have the insights. And so all of our efforts, well meaning as they were, literally made the problem worse.
Russell De Vos: yep.
Joshua Boswell: And I don't know… have you seen that? I'm talking about my family, but I wonder if you've seen that in other families? Because you've seen more than I have.
Margie Boswell: He’s nodding here. I think he’s…
Russell De Vos: Yeah. Without a doubt. In fact, we were one of those parents for certain. So one of the major driving premises and driving goals of the Lifeline Program that I offer to parents is to help parents become an asset not a liability to their teens' recovery process.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Because as you were just saying… I’ll just say a hearty amen to it. Many parents have a lot of great intentions. They love their kids. They want to help their kids. But the way they help actually doesn't help. There's a book entitled When Helping Hurts. I have it on my shelf back here. That's exactly what it is. The helping is actually hurting. It's actually pushing further into the future the recovery and the process of sobriety and recovery. It's a hindrance, not a help. And so when we work with parents, that's the first premise of this whole course is we're gonna help you become an asset not a liability to your child's recovery.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And so yes, you're absolutely right.
Joshua Boswell: So I think that one of the biggest challenges there is that…. Well, there's these multi-generational belief systems that were structured. And there's the pendulum on each side. One side it's like we just need to be more authoritative. We need to be dictatorial. We need to clamp down, strict rules. We need to just drop the hammer on this kid. Because if we don't, they're gonna go crazy. And of course, that, in my view… Of course, you might have a different idea. But in my view, that hits the object button. Because the kid goes berserk under the pressure, right?
Russell De Vos: Mm-hm.
Joshua Boswell: Then there's the other side of the pendulum, which I've seen in a lot of people. And that's the unconditional love. C'est La Vie.
Margie Boswell: Just whatever you're gonna do.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah whatever you’re gonna do. We love you no matter what. We'll just support you no matter what.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And we'll just enable and facilitate it till you’re dead. And we'll love you the whole time.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: And we'll go… It's like, I've got two siblings that have passed away. One definitely with drug related stuff. And I think we loved him right into the ground. I mean, I don't mean that crass.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: You know, it's been 23 years since he passed away, but. So we have this spectrum. And I think that there's multi-generational, from baby boomers, let's be super strict and beat our kids. To hippie generation, let's not do anything.
Russell De Vos: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And it’s all swirled up in this weird convolutions of stuff. And we're the parents now. It's like… what do we do? So I wonder what you see in terms of mindset and perspective and belief like worldview. And how do we counter that?
Russell De Vos: Yeah, yeah. Let's start right at the foundation. With the lifeline course, it's three stages and I view it literally like building a house.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And any house that is going to be solid has to have a solid foundation, right? And so what is the foundation? I'm speaking from the perspective of a parent dealing with the delinquent or defiant or or drug abusing child, but this really applies to every parent.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: So the first principle, the first paradigm, mindset that we instill in parents is this: You must anchor your hope for your parenting in God alone. Now, I love the fact that I can speak as a person of faith on this podcast…
Joshua Boswell: Oh yes!
Russell De Vos: Because really, this is just so paramount to our journey.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Because here's what I was doing, and what I've seen so many parents do. First of all, we hook our wagon to outcomes or sources. Now, let me explain that. Our hope really is wishful thinking. But it's linked to how are our children doing? How are they progressing? What is their behavior? If they're battling drugs or alcohol, are they becoming sober? And we link our hope to their behavior.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And if it's good, we're up here. If it's bad we're down here. And so we get on this emotional roller coaster of our hope rises and falls based on things we have no control over.
Joshua Boswell: Can I pause you and say something right there?
Russell De Vos: Of course!
Joshua Boswell: I just had this aha moment. One thing I've learned about deviant people and drug addicts is they are awesome at manipulation. And they get these patterns and they… I'm probably jumping ahead here. But like, holy mackerel. I saw the drug addicts just twist and manipulate this up and down to their own game. Anyway, so sorry that was just like I said this light bulb go off. It's like yeah… Oh, yeah! Okay. Go ahead.
Margie Boswell: Agreed.
Russell De Vos: Just to give you a little sense of what we call it… In every relationship, and this is really kind of going out in the weeds for a second, but we'll bring it home.
Joshua Boswell: All right.
Russell De Vos: That person and usually there's one parent or another, sometimes it's both, but typically there's one parent who is more easily manipulated than the other.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And of course that's where the deviant, defiant, whatever kind of child… they go right for that person. We call that person the weak gazelle. The weak gazelle. They're the one in the pack that the lion has watched and says, I can track this one down. I can hunt this one down. They’re the weak link.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And they always go for the weak gazelle. And so we're always telling parents, Don't be the weak gazelle. Don't be that person. And it's funny because when you kind of assign that title that there's this thing inside them, they say, I don't want to be the weak gazelle! And it really generates some fire in their bones to say, No, not me. I don't want to be that one. So that is exactly right.
Joshua Boswell: I'm didn’t mean to interrupt and get off into the weeds, but I love it. Let's not be the week gazelle. Okay, you keep going… yeah. Outcomes.
Russell De Vos: Outcomes. So for instance, a lot of the parents were working with, they've already sent their child to a program, and they get a weekly phone call. And so we meet with a lot of the parents on Tuesdays. And one week that phone call will have gone so well. The child is telling them that we got progress, and they're working the program. And the parent will come on to the coaching call and they're just ecstatic. Our child is doing so well! Next week, you just look at their face, and you know.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: The phone call was a total dud and their child told him he hated him. He shouldn't be at the program. They've made a mistake. They need to bring him home. Whatever the case might be. And they're just in the dumpster. And so we tell them, Guys, listen. It's got to be water off the ducks back.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: You cannot hook your wagon and your hope to outcome. Because it'll change like the weather here in Seattle. I mean, it can be five different weathers in one day, you know? And the other is linking your hope to programs, people, Etc.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Russell De Vos: And so for instance, maybe it's a coaching program. Maybe it's a Teen Challenge program. Maybe it's whatever. And we link our hope to that. I know when I was looking… We were at the end of our rope with our son and I was looking all over the nation. I spent about a year researching programs. I had one thing in mind. When I went on to that website, it was, How good are they at fixing kids? That's it.
Margie Boswell: Yep!
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, yeah.
Russell De Vos: I wanted 95% success rate. What's your success rate? That was my one question. So my hope was firmly hitched to the program. Do you have the power to fix kids? And the reality is, if people are involved, again it'll go up and down. And so the first thing we tell parents is, Listen, the only rock that is unmovable is Jesus. That is it. And I know it's a process of figuring out what that looks like to hitch your hope, to have Jesus Himself, God Himself as the anchor of your hope.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos:v But I will tell you, in this journey… Well here's another major mindset shift and that is this: So many parents engage in their parenting journey, but then even more specifically in their journey with a prodigal child and their goal… everything is about fixing the child.
Joshua Boswell: Yes, yeah.
Russell De Vos: And what we realize… and this is really the first faulty paradigm that we have to fix. And the premise here is that all of behavior flows out of the way we think. So when we start working with parents, we always address thinking first. So Stage One of Lifeline is really addressing faulty mindset and expectations. That will absolutely derail a parent and keep them on this emotional rollercoaster. And as long as we're on this emotional rollercoaster of hitching our hope that things that are movable, we will never be an asset to our child.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: They need us to be solid. They need us to be led by principle, not by emotion.
Margie Boswell: Mmm.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: They do not… Here's the deal. We want to develop a trusting relationship with our child. They intuitively know when we're led by emotion, we are not trustworthy.
Joshua Boswell: That's right.
Russell De Vos: We are undermining… You know, our desire is so deep to be able to trust them to have them be able to trust us. But emotion led parenting always undermines trust.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Russell De Vos: That child knows. My parent is a leaf blowing in the wind. Up and down, wherever my behavior goes. And really their well-being is based on my behavior.
MargieBoswell: Wow.
Russell De Vos: And when I'm doing good, they're doing good. When I’m doing bad, they’re doing bad. And a child can't trust a parent like that.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And that parent becomes a liability. So the first paradigm after… Well, let me give you two kind of pre-paradigms. One is our hope must be hitched only to the Rock, Jesus. Can’t be outcomes or programs or processes. It has to be the person of Jesus.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah
Russell De Vos: In the middle of all of it, we trust Him. We know He's at work and we can trust Him. Number two is that this isn't about fixing our son or our child. And even as parents who are dealing with normal kids, our parenting ultimately isn't about trying to create and craft this child that we think they should be.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Russell De Vos: I mean, our job is not about fixing or creating. We have one Creator.
Joshua Boswell: Yep.
Russell De Vos: And He's a lot better at it than we are.
Margie Boswell: Yes!
Russell De Vos: And so this journey then is about our transformation. It’s about our transformation first.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: So the paradigm that we address right out of the chutes is the fixing paradigm, which just says, I’ll just fix my delinquent teen as fast as possible. Then we can all move on with life.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Russell De Vos: Or he or she won't ruin their life. And so everything is focused on fixing the teen or the child. And the thing we have to tell parents… and I just say it and let them sit with it: You. Cannot. Fix. Your. Teen.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: You can't do it. You end up just being a control freak trying to fix them. So here's the new paradigm that we replace this fixing paradigm with. It's simply this: I will allow God to work on me. I will trust him with my teen. I will quit trying to fix my teen and I will just allow God to transform me. You guys, this is so profound. I want to share this with you. I had a conversation with my oldest son this past Sunday. It was unbelievable what he told me. He said this… because I was saying to him, Sam, in the past, I have tried so hard to control your life. I've met well, but it hasn't worked well. It wasn't the right parenting method. And I told him, I'm now making a goal to step back, to trust you, and to not get involved in your life. And just to allow you to walk your own journey. And I thought that sounded so good and Sam said to me, Dad, you have made so many changes in your life. He said, There's never been a time when we've needed you in our lives more than now. He said do not withdraw. You need to step in more than ever before.
Margie Boswell: Awww.
Joshua Boswell: Wow!
Russell De Vos: I literally could not believe my ears. But it was because at some point I stopped trying to fix my kids and I allowed God to transform me.
Joshua Boswell: Transform..
Russell De Vos: And the process continues, but now I've become the parent that I've always wanted to be. Where my kids are saying, Dad, we don't want you to step back. We want you to step in.
Joshua Boswell: yeah.
Russell De Vos: And they’re inviting me to come into their life and it's almost unbelievable to hear, it you guys.
Joshua Boswell: So awesome. I just want to stand up and cheer. It's so amazing.
Russell De Vos: I know.
Joshua Boswell: The thing about this is… I want to point out two things that you said. Number one, God is the Creator and He's just way better out of than we are.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: And it's so true. He knows all the elements and He understands with His infinite wisdom how everything fits together and where it needs to go. And I think also, this idea that we, as the parent, have to fix this child. It's like that… that sort of has this premises of ownership. Like we own this child and they are our fault, and we have to fix them.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And if we don't then it looks bad on our stewardship and it's like, Well hold on. Wait a minute. Actually this is God's child.
Russell De Vos: Absolutely right.
Joshua Boswell: And we get to run this amazing race called life with them and be a guide and a loving mentor with them, but we are not fixing them. We're not correcting them. And I think that so many parents wrap up all their identity in their child's behavior. So one of the hopes that they're pinned on is, will their child be good? Will they be a great citizen in the world? Will they be whatever, right? Whatever their thought is of what that kid should be. Whether it's a doctor, lawyer, ditch digger, like they have their hopes.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And just to reemphasize one of the things you said Russ that I loved and that is: There's really only one unchangeable, imperfect being. And I promise you it's not me. It’s not me.
Russell De Vos: 100% yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And even my wife… I say Margie is practically perfect in every way, which is true. But there is the “practically” part, right? And so if we have… just to reemphasize what you're saying, if we have our hopes pinned on a human being or a program created by human beings, it's gonna be fallible. It's gonna make mistakes. It's gonna have a weak link somewhere. It will let us down.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: But God, never. He cannot. It will not happen that He will let us down. a
Russell De Vos: Ahh… it’s so good to hear that. Isn't that…? That's just a powerful statement!
Joshua Boswell: It is! It’s so… and we just have to have that fixed in our mind.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: Because anything else, we're just… we're building the house on the sand as Christ warned us against doing, right?
Russell De Vos: Yeah, that’s exactly right.
Joshua Boswell: Let's not do that.
Russell De Vos: Agreed. Agreed. And it's so interesting because you segued perfectly into the second paradigm. And I call it the responsibility paradigm.
Joshua Boswell: Okay.
Russell De Vos: I'm responsible for fixing my son. Now, what's the difference between the fixing paradigm and the responsibility paradigm? Paradigm number one assumes that we can fix them.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Russell De Vos: And we got to dispel that. You can't.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: But then there's this, I'm responsible. We feel this heavy responsibility for our kids. And the second paradigm shift that we address and the paradigm that is faulty is that I’m “responsible for” to fix, to save, etc. I'm responsible for them. And that just puts this massive, literally crushing load on us that we were never meant to carry.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Right.
Russell De Vos: Now, without getting into too much detail, one thing that we do teach are the four phases of parenting. So just… these are not exactly scientific, but they're all C’s. I'll walk you through them real quick. Zero to roughly three, you're the Caretaker. You are pretty much taking care of everything in those years.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, right.
Russell De Vos: Then you transition into what would someone call the Cop. And there's a lot of teaching boundaries, and there's a lot of verbal teaching, and there's a lot of no’s.
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah.
Russell De Vos: As you teach the kids, you know, this is okay, this isn't okay. Here's where you end, here’s where others start. And you're teaching what is right, what is wrong? A lot of moral teaching.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Russell De Vos: But then you transition. And here's where I blew it. I didn't transition.
Joshua Boswell: You stayed the cop?
Russell De Vos: I stayed the cop when I should have transitioned to about 13 when they're becoming young adults… And our goal as parents isn't to keep them around us for all our life. They’re arrows to be shot out into the world, to be effective in the world. And so the third phase or the third “C” is Coach.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Russell De Vos: About 13 to 18. That's still those junior high and high school years. What does that mean? A coach is still very, very involved in the life of the athlete. You know, if you look at it as a team, they're very involved, but they're on the sideline while the child, or the player is out on the field, if you will.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And what does the coach do? The coach doesn't run out if he sees the team lining up wrong. He's gonna let the flag fly and then he's going to help them. How do we overcome the failure? He allows the child to fail and as we, in that phase of between junior high and high school and that age, as parents it's less words more modeling with our lives and allowing consequences to do the teaching.
Margie Boswell: Mmm.
Russell De Vos: And then we're there as a coach to say, Okay, why didn't that go? Or why did that go well?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Russell De Vos: Because consequences go both ways. They can make good decisions with great consequences, not so good decisions with bad consequences. Here's one thing I've come to realize. You always hear the story of the person who leaves high school and they were relatively a good citizen in high school and they go into college and they just go bananas.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Yep.
Russell De Vos: I would be willing to bet you that that's probably in a home where there was high control. Cop. During the 13 to 18.
Joshua Boswell: Cop. Yeah.
Russell De Vos: I really believe that part of development with the child is that they have to be able to fail in a safe environment.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Russell De Vos: Especially in their junior high and high school years where the parent says, Listen. Failure doesn't threaten us. We're going to use that failure as a teaching opportunity. We're gonna let consequences teach and then we're going to come in and help you see how that works.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hm.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: They get to sow some wild oats. And apparently, we're so afraid of our child making mistakes and not getting the scholarship and all the stuff and we try to control it all. And our child needs us to step back beyond the sideline. We're right there. I mean, we're not far from them. But we're on the sideline letting them play the game of life. Letting the flag be thrown. Letting them fumble the interception, whatever, using this sports analogy. But then we come back and we say, Okay, what could we have done differently? What could we have done better? Here's the consequence. And they get to fail in a safe environment. It's very interesting you guys, the nation of Israel and the Jewish people have had more Nobel prizes per capita than any other people group and in history by a long shot.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: It's very interesting when you study their culture. They have a very profound environment of mentorship where the younger generation is being mentored by the older generation and allowed to fail in a safe environment and they don't boot them out.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Russell De Vos: They use it as a teaching opportunity. So they get to learn from their failure and they fail forward and as a result become brilliant business people.
Joshua Boswell: That's awesome.
Margie Boswell: Hmm.
Russell De Vos: And I think that same environment has to be applied to the home with our kids as junior high and high school kids.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: So many parents don't understand this. I didn’t. I tried to cop them all the way through. And I work with the natural progression of parenting. And I caused so much… my heart was in a good place. I was trying to do the best I knew how. But I really didn't love them well. I didn't lead them well. And so I'm picking up the pieces now. We're putting it back together.
Joshua Boswell: But what's amazing is… and the analogy in my mind is Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. And you remember they ate the fruit and they suddenly learn good and evil and God said, Okay, you're out. I'll keep teaching you, but you're out. You got to go learn on your own to discern and to figure out what's right and wrong and experience. Go till the ground and sweat of your brow.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: And it’s time for you to go. And I think that there's a really powerful example that God gives us there. What you're talking about is that we can't Cop them forever. They can't stay in the safety bubble of the Garden of Eden, or our home, forever. It's like a, okay, step… I love the coaching analogy. It's like, step to the sideline. Let them play the game.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: Then be there to help them, you know?
Margie Boswell: So good.
Joshua Boswell: Because you're not walking off the field… Yeah. Love it.
Russell De Vos: And so many parents, you guys, the helicopter parenting?
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah.
Russell De Vos: Then like you said, you've got the two extremes. You’ve got the one parent… they're not even on the sidelines. They're not even in the stadium.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Russell De Vos: They've left the stadium and their kids all by themselves. That is one extreme. Then the other extreme is where the coach, he's running out onto the field and he's correcting things in the middle of the game, micromanaging everything. And the ref is looking at him saying, What are you doing? You're getting the flag because you're out here. You got to be…
Joshua Boswell: You’re on the field!
Russell De Vos: Yeah! So just having that mindset and learning as a parent, again, not to be threatened by imperfect kids. They're learning.
Joshua Boswell: Are you telling me that our kids are gonna make mistakes? Come on, Russ.
Russell De Vos: Well maybe not your kids, but mine.
Joshua Boswell: Well, actually…
Margie Boswell: We’re all in this together.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. But isn't that so funny that we… it’s like, OH no! What if my kid makes a mistake? It’s like… well duh! They're human.
Margie Boswell: They're going to.
Joshua Boswell: Let's create a safe environment for it. I love that paradigm.
Russell De Vos: And to see it not as a problem, but an opportunity.
Joshua Boswell: Exactly. Yeah.
Russell De Vos: That's where parents… This is a major paradigm shift that they have to make too. It’s that we can see failures and fatal. Failure isn’t fatal.
Joshua Boswell: No.
Russell De Vos: Some of the best businessman, they say… I think it was Warren Buffett or one of these great businessmen, he said fail often, fail fast, fail forward.
Margie Boswell: Mmm.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Fail often. Fail fast. Fail forward. They have no fear of failure because they see it as a learning opportunity.
Margie Boswell: Mmm-hmm.
Joshua Boswell: Exactly. Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And I think as parents if we can see these things… Even with most recently a setback with our own sons' recovery, to be able to apply that and say: This is a learning opportunity.
Joshua Boswell: Totally.
Russell De Vos: For us and for him. This is not a problem. This is an opportunity. What do we still have to learn? How can we still grow? We’re clear that our faith isn't fully developed yet, that muscle still can be stronger and a lot stronger. And we don't see it as a problem, but it's an opportunity.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. So again, I'm just having so many insights here about God as a parent. And not to make too many religious analogies or spiritual analogies, (I think you can make too many.) But anyway. The interesting thing to me is God knew for a fact when He stuck us down on earth that we're gonna make mistakes. That was the whole point of sending Jesus Christ, right? It's going to happen. I know it's going to happen.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: Let's create an environment where they can recover from that and grow from that. Instead of being eternally damned and cast off into outer darkness, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Let's create an environment for this. And I think that we can do that, what you're talking about. It’s doing the same thing in our own homes, Russ. With our children, right?
Russell De Vos: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: And we won't do marriage counseling here, but with spouses too. I mean the whole environment, right?
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: By the way, what's the fourth thing?
Margie Boswell: Yeah what’s number four?!
Russell De Vos: Good question. Number four then is counselor.
Margie Boswell: Okay.
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah.
Russell De Vos: And so let me give a sense of what that looks like. Coach is on the sideline. A counselor is not on the sideline. A counselor is even further withdrawn in a sense.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And as a counselor, you don't go out in the streets trying to find your clients. I mean, there's some marketing, obviously, with every business. But a counselor, you come to a counselor. You approach a counselor in your time of need.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And so for instance, now, I'm really really embracing that role of counselor with my kids, where I'm trying to really respect their space as adults.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And interestingly enough what my son told me this past Sunday that, Dad we need you in our lives more than ever. That is him approaching the counselor and saying, We give you permission to give us counsel.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Wow.
Margie Boswell: Aww.
Russell De Vos: And so many parents, the meddling mother-in-law, the meddling father, you know. All the… that they just want to control their kids' parenting. They want to control everything. Instead of saying, Listen, we're available and we would be happy to share thoughts with you as you would like them.
Margie Boswell: Request it.
Russell De Vos: We’re not going to thrust ourselves into your life and dump the dump truck of all of our years of wisdom onto your lap whether you like it or not. We're not gonna do that. We're going to respect you as adults or can respect your space. We’re going to respect your family, your marriage, Etc. But we're available as counselors should you need us. And that's why parents need to be safe. We've got to be safe individuals with our kids.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And continue to work on ourselves so that we can be those safe people. Our kids right now need us more than ever before.
Joshua Boswell: Oh, man.
Russell De Vos:v And they're 25, 23, and 22 and we're parenting more now that I think we've ever parented.
Margie Boswell: That’s amazing.
Joshua Boswell: I love it.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So this… I mean we started down the four C’s here looking at this paradigm of being responsible for the child. And I think really what you're saying is that instead of having that crushing weight of being responsible, we just see that, No, there's different phases from the Caretaker to the Cop to the Coach to the Counselor. And immediately that… I'm feeling it now. Like that immediately frees up this pressure, right?
Russell De Vos: Yes. The “responsible for” transitions to “responsible to.”
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: You guys, that was one of the most freeing little statements. “Responsible for” transitioning to “responsible to.” And what that means is, my whole focus isn't my child. My focus is here. I'm responsible to them to be calm.
Joshua Boswell: Mm-hmm
Russell De Vos: To have my anger under control. I'm responsible to them to be growing as a dad. To be building my relationship with God so that I have Godly wisdom to impart to them.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: I'm responsible to them for a lot of things. I don't have time to continue to be responsible for them as they grow into their adulthood. I need to keep... I need to transition to this understanding that they're going to need me never before, so I better be ready. I've got to allow God to transform and change me. I'm responsible to them to be a growing man, to be a wiser man than I was a year ago, a month ago. To continue to grow, because they're gonna be looking to me in their later teen years and then as they pursue marriage, as they are parents, they need me to be wise and to be solid and to be principal and biblically driven versus emotionally driven.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Yeah, we're responsible to them, not for them.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Russell De Vos: That really helped me so much. Oh my goodness. I just realized, I need to get in my office and just wrestle it out with God and let Him change me. Yeah.
Margie Boswell: Mmm.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. And the other… You keep saying that, which is so interesting. We have to let God transform us. It’s this transformation of us and our journey. And what I think is so powerful about that is that and at the end of the day, we really cannot change our children. Just the same as I can't change Margie. And I think of the analogy of… we love vegetable gardening and stuff. And I can create an environment for that seed to grow.
Russell De Vos: That's right.
Joshua Boswell: But do I really have any idea how that seed grows? Or how to make it grow or make it…? Like, the actual reality is no. I can only control me. The seed’s gonna do… I can't control all the bugs. I can't control the weather. There's like a billion and one things, but I can control me.
Russell De Vos: Mm-hmm.
Joshua Boswell: And so that's what I hear you saying. It’s like, look. Take yourself to God and get square there. Let that transformation happen, and then you and He can partner within the parenting process, right? This “responsible to” concept. It's awesome.
Russell De Vos: That’s exactly the truth. Here's what a lot of people think. They think, for instance in a marriage, they think… I’ll ask couples this. I’ll ask them how many people have to change for your marriage to change? And I mean, I would say 80% will say both of us have to change.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: I tell them that sounds maybe most obvious on the surface of it, but that's not the case.
Joshua Boswell: No.
Russell De Vos: If even one of you changes by 5%, that marriage gets better by 5%.
Joshua Boswell: That’s right.
Russell De Vos: If it's a positive change. So with our kids… so for instance with our son, while he's at his program literally getting worse.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: He came out of his program 11 months later, and he plunged into drug abuse at that point.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: But while he was doing that, my wife and I were working on ourselves for 11 months without him in the home at that point. And we did dramatic and radical changes and became unified as a couple. I mean, things we had struggled with for years. So when our son got out of his program and he came home, he came home to a completely different home. It was like… when he went to his program, our yard was a junkyard. His yard was also a junkyard. So both of our yards were a junkyard. But when he came home, our yard was clean.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: The broken glass and all the rusted out auto parts and all that. They were all gone. They were clean.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: He came home to a home where there was peace. There was hnity. There were two people who were learning how to control their emotions, how to trust God and how not to be reactive to behaviors that weren't right, to a plan where there were clear boundaries, clear consequences. I mean, he came home to a radically different environment.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And it changed everything. He chose, a month and a half after he got home, he knew Mom and Dad are a wall. They're… not gonna separate them. They're a wall. This plan is very clear. And he just said very simply, there was no emotion. A month and a half later, he said, I'm gonna be leaving because I don't want to live under these rules.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And I know that you guys are going to enforce them. And there was no drama. No yelling. There was no… that would have all been the case in the past.
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah.
Russell De Vos: It was, we hugged him, we prayed over him, we blessed him, and out he went. Down into the far country to basically start his journey of self-destruction.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Well and in the process… Look, number one, you couldn't have stopped that self-destruction process anyway. Number two, you have to stay and become that counselor and be anchored to Christ.
Russell De Vos: That's right.
Joshua Boswell: And I think that's what a lot of parents need to understand and hear. It’s that in the story of The Prodigal Son, which I know you love…
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: The dad did not go running out chasing and tracking him down and begging him to come home at every step and counseling about how to spend his money and to not do this drug or not do that. And likewise when he ended up in the pig’s lot. The dad wasn't out there scooping him up. The dad sat on the porch waiting and watching. He was ready when he came back.
Russell De Vos: That is so profound.
Joshua Boswell: And the thing about it is that… And my belief is that whether in this life or the next, they'll come back. Because they want to connect with God. They want to connect with parents and family. They might not fully repent and change, but they want to come back. And I've seen this in my own family with some of the things we talked about. It's like there's these moments in time where it's like… I had an experience a couple weeks ago where one of my siblings and I connected with other, and it was an unbelievable experience.
Russell De Vos: Yeah. Wow.
Joshua Boswell: We don’t have time to talk about it, but there was a brief outreach of him to me… Because we've stayed solid.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And he was like, Man… maybe one day I'll get back there. And I was like, Ok look, this was a touch point. I'm grateful for it. And then he returned to his life. I returned to mine. But we're still here and he knows it.
Russell De Vos: Yep, that's exactly right.
Joshua Boswell: I think there’s amazing power there. It's amazing…
Russell De Vos: Exactly right. We can't and we won't… if we're parenting biblically, helpfully, we're exercising the tough, healthy love that got exercised in the story of The Prodigal Son.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: There were six, distinct steps down into the pig pen in that story.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Six steps. Here's what we see with parents, and I’ve walked them through this. This is lesson number three of Lifeline. I walk them through all six. And I share the story and then we have a very clear action point: Don't go after your child. Number two, stay right on the porch, as you said.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Stay on the property. Stay on the property. Stay on the property. And the last one, I believe it says no one was giving him anything.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And I'm convinced in that story that at some point when he and that hog were nose to nose, fighting over that, he saw himself in that pig.
Joshua Boswell: Exactly. Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And said, That's my reflection. That is who I am. And it says he came to his senses and he got up out of there. And then there are eight very clear indications of what Heart Change looks like when a prodigal comes home.
Joshua Boswell: Totally.
Russell De Vos: And it's a beautiful thing and… Oh, it's beautiful.
Joshua Boswell: Okay, I'm gonna pause you there because I think that's like a whole nother interview. Or we put a seminar on and you come and teach or something.
Margie Boswell: Oh yes!
Joshua Boswell: Like… that sounds like a whole program in and of itself. That's like a beautiful… and I think you mentioned to me that there are three or four or five Paradigm shifts, and I think we've got two of them.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And…
Margie Boswell: We’re running out of time!
Joshua Boswell: Yeah but can you share one or two more with us?
Russell De Vos: I'll do it quickly.
Joshua Boswell: Go ahead.
Russell De Vos: Yes. Number three is the Perfect Solution or the Quick Fix Paradigm. In other words, if we deal perfectly with this situation, it will resolve right away. There is some sort of a magic formula for this situation to be quickly fixed. And so many parents, they fall into that. And what I tell them is this: Guys, what has taken years to get tangled up won't get untangled overnight.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: You've got to let go of this quick fix mindset. So the new paradigm is simply this: I'm in this for the long haul no matter how long it will take. Lord, I trust you.
Margie Boswell: Oh…
Russell De Vos: That’s really it. It’s not about, God, where's the finish line? That's not our business. That's God's business.
Joshua Boswell: That's right.
Russell De Vos: Our business is to say I'm in it. I'm hitched to the Lord Jesus, and I'm with Him until… for the long haul.
Joshua Boswell: That's right.
Russell De Vos: No quick fixes. So that's the third paradigm. And a lot of parents, that rocks their world.
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah.
Russell De Vos: But they get over this quick fix, it's gonna be just over very quickly. Or else they just spin out in depression, disillusion and despair. They go into despair.
Joshua Boswell: I just want to comment on something on that. I think that… in my view, we live in a society that I think has gone to great lengths to create fixed mindset, perspectives and beliefs. In other words, we'll take education as an example. You go to school, you get a degree and you're done.
Russell De Vos: Right.
Joshua Boswell: Now you go get a career and then you work that career and you're done. There's this magical endpoint to this journey of life that we’ve fixated on is a society.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: And I think that it's insanely detrimental. Like incredibly detrimental, because… Versus a growth mindset of, we're not seeking end destinations, except for one. And that is to return back to God. But in that, everything else is a journey
Russell De Vos: That's right.
Joshua Boswell: And we're growing and growing and growing and growing and growing. And this idea about a quick solution, a formula, a mindset, a silver bullet. I think a lot of people feel that because number one, it's such a fun idea. It's like OH… One little program and my child’s fixed! This is great! Totally fake, but it's a fun and appealing idea.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: But I think the other thing is that we… a lot of parents, they themselves are in a fixed growth mindset. As opposed to an elastic or variable growth mindset.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: And I think what you're doing here, Russ, is you're pulling them out of that. And anytime we pull out of our cover zone, it kind of hurts.
Russell De Vos: Better believe it. That's right.
Joshua Boswell: But the result of that is a miraculous change of heart.
Russell De Vos: Right.
Joshua Boswell: Life… God said that He gives peace that surpasses understanding. And… I think this is one of the ways that He does it, is He helps us understand like… this event is not the end. This behavior is not the person. This… we continue to grow and become. And God's not done with us, and He's certainly done with our kids yet.
Russell De Vos: That's right.
Joshua Boswell: And having that perspective that … Oh, this might be a big mistake right now, but it's not an end destination. We just get to keep growing, you know? And I think even… Even my siblings. I’ve got two siblings that have passed away, my mom's passed away. I've got another sibling that's staring down the barrel of prostate cancer and may only be with this for another couple years, right? And you know what? I just think God says, He's eternal. I just don't know that He's done with them ever after death. So I think that we get to have this ongoing growth mindset.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And that… I just think it's amazing what you're talking about here. Yeah. Be in this for life, right? It's like, I'm in this for the long haul. It's beautiful.
Russell De Vos: One thing as you look at all these paradigms that are faulty, almost at the base of all of them is control.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: We want to control our kids, we want to control their behaviors. And then when we realize we can't control our kids, we want to control the timeline for when they get fixed. And then paradigm number four is the guarantee paradigm. Well, we sent them to private school, christian school, took them to church. We were great parents. Blah, blah, blah. That should be… That’s the formula/guarantee paradigm. We did all the right things, therefore, boom out the back end comes this perfect child.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Right.
Russell De Vos: And well biblically you can just destroy that in a heartbeat. I mean God is the Father, right? Adam and Eve, the first children were delinquent, defiant, drug abusing in the sense that they went for the bad tree, right? They were messed up and they had the perfect Father. So this idea that, Oh, we did all this right… how can it possibly be? Well, go to Genesis chapter 3 and you'll answer your question real quick.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah.
Russell De Vos: And so the new paradigm is, Listen, we will do all that we know with God's help to raise our kids right. But we understand there's no guarantees…
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: That they're gonna turn out right whatever that looks like, right? I mean we have this picture of what that even looks like. And so we get rid of the formulas. Again, trying to control that part of life. And then the fifth paradigm is the “it's my fault" paradigm. And this one says, I'm the one responsible for my prodigal teen being messed up. It's all my fault.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Russell De Vos: And so the first one is, I've done everything right! They should turn out right. This one is, I've done everything wrong. It's all my fault. And here are three major offshoots or bad fruits of that. Number one is depression.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: When you start taking blame, you live in depression. That creates a sense of finality and hopelessness. This is all there. There’s nothing we can do about it and despair. Number two is distraction.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Russell De Vos: It weighs us down and clouds our view. Because people who are busy focusing on who's to blame and all of that. They're not getting busy finding a solution to take things forward.
Joshua Boswell: That’s right.
Russell De Vos: They're just distracted by their own shame and guilt. And then the third is debilitation. When we're all loaded with guilt and shame about it and it's our fault, we allow the teen to see themselves as a victim of us.
Margie Boswell: Mm-hmm.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: We victimized the teen and then with us as parents… and you see this in King David's life after he failed so terribly. You look at his parenting with his kids. It was horrendous.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Russell De Vos: I'm convinced that King David never, ever truly understood that I blew it and I'm gonna fail forward. He lived in that failure and allowed his children… He didn't step in as a strong leader into their lives and say, This is not right. He was very permissive. And so when we live under this, it's my fault paradigm, we're debilitated as parents and we become weak. And we let our kids off the hook and we don't… because who am I to say anything? I've blown it so badly.
Joshua Boswell: I’ve blown it, too. Right.
Russell De Vos: And it destroys us. Well destroys might be too… it really debilitates this as parents.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah and we're teaching our child that they are not responsible for it. I would have turned out right, but Dad told me so many times that I'm actually his problem.
Russell De Vos: That's right.
Joshua Boswell: So I mean clearly, I don't have to have any responsibility for my own life.
Russell De Vos: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And it changes everything up. It's interesting this twofold idea that I did everything right and everything wrong and there's formula base and there's quick fixes. I keep thinking of the phrase where God says He's the Lord of the harvest, right?
Russell De Vos: Hmm.
Joshua Boswell: And really the outcomes are not our job.
Russell De Vos: That's right.
Joshua Boswell: He tells us to thrust our sickle. He tells us to go to work. He tells us to do what we can do. But He's really the Lord of the harvest. And He's going to produce what He needs to produce based on… The other thing I think of is, I actually have no idea who God has ordained my kids to be. And I have no idea what their journey needs to be for them to become that. I really don’t. I’m not omniscient.
Russell De Vos: Yeah. Yes.
Joshua Boswell: And He gets it, and I think that there's sometimes… I know one of our children was the most curious little bug. And we were at a house one day and the old proverbial hand on the stove. It was actually up in Seattle, in Poulsbo.
Russell De Vos: Yeah!
Joshua Boswell: We were at this friend’s house and they had a wood burning stove sitting there and he was… how old was Joshua?
Margie Boswell: Less than two. Year and a half?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, he's like two years old. He was into everything. Curious. We kept saying that's hot, don't touch it. And we turned our back and he went and just smeared that whole hand right on. And instead of freaking out and getting mad, we’re like, Okay, we'll help you bandage it up. So I think that we need to allow those outcomes and this perspective and realize that God is the God of the harvest. And he's going to create the outcomes that He needs for them in their journey. Because He loves them and He's working them to come back home. And we just get to play a part, right? So anyway.
Russell De Vos: That I love that. The Lord of the harvest. He is. I tell parents all the time, Guys, your responsibility is vertical.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: You need to have a super highway that goes straight to heaven.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Then His responsibility is horizontal. Stay out of His business. Stay out of His business. Obedience, not outcomes. Don’t focus on outcomes, that’s God’s business. Don’t fool in His business. Your business is to find out what His marching orders are and obey. And when you do your job, He absolutely will do His job. And we can take that to the bank.
Joshua Boswell: I want to say something as a marketer really quick. Because I think a lot of people listening to this… There's another piece of the puzzle here that I think is really important for people to have eyes wide open. And that is, here's the reality. Now, I'm a marketer. I’m a business development guy. I get it. But the reality of it is, a lot of these paradigms you've talked about, Russ… There are individuals out there exploiting us as parents for those ends, right?
Russell De Vos: Right.
Joshua Boswell: They're selling the quick fix. They're telling us it's not our fault. Or it is our fault. They're telling us that you've done everything right and they're soothing us with these false words and whatnot. And then on the flip side, you talked about distraction and debilitation. And so we now live in a world where companies like Facebook. And I'm not trying to vilify anybody, but I'm just.. eyes wide open, right?
Russell De Vos: Mm-hmm.
Joshua Boswell: But we've got companies like Facebook and other social media platforms who literally hire addiction experts to try to enslave the minds of the people so that they can make more money, right? And so if we're feeling sad or depressed we can go get a dopamine hit by scrolling through Facebook or TikTok or whatever, right?
Russell De Vos: Right.
Joshua Boswell: I'm saying this because I think that those technologies can be used for good. So I think that there's some neutral stuff there. But I also know that there is an enemy to our souls.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: And there is a power that wants us to be depressed and distracted or feel like we're omnipotent and it wasn't our fault. And all these things that are not Godly, and it wants to destroy our life. And we are swimming in a sea of forces that are moving our minds to do this.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: And what I want to say to parents is that, just go into this whole thing with eyes wide open. What Russ is… Russ, what you've talked about here is truth. And the truth will set us free.
Russell De Vos: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: And we don't need to fall prey to all of this stuff. It's like what you said. All I did… I was running around the country looking for the guy who put on his website that he had a 95% success rate, right? Well, you were vulnerable to these marketing tactics.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And in the long run, in some ways, I think it probably hurt you and your family. And not to say that we shouldn't buy programs. Because I think that in some cases we should. Not say we shouldn't have help and coaches and counselors. I'm just saying, let's just be aware that the hope is not pinned on those. It's in God and sometimes God will use those things to further us on our journey, right?
Russell De Vos: That’s right. That's a great balance, because there are good things but… I started with a couple last night who… Their 12 and a half year old daughter is King Kong in their family. And they're scared to death of her, the only child. And I told them, I just said, You guys listen. I'm gonna pour everything I've got.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: I really believe we're going to see radical change with your family, but, I told them… Because we went through this lesson about outcomes and programs and I told them. You don’t pin your hope to me. You don't pin your hope to this program.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Your hope must be pinned to the Lord Jesus. There’s this story in Numbers 21 where the people were complaining and grumbling and God sent snakes into the camp. I don't know if you remember that story.
Joshua Boswell: Yep!
Russell De Vos: And the people all the sudden realized, We blew it. And then they went to Moses and they said pray to God and ask him to take away the snakes. He didn't take away the snakes.
Joshua Boswell: No, he did not.
Russell De Vos: He said, Moses you’re to form a bronze snake, you’re to hang it on a pole and the people who get bitten are to go and they're to look up to the bronze snake on the pole, which we know in John chapter 3 that is a foreshadow of the Lord Jesus on the cross.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Being our Savior and our Redeemer. And so I told them, listen, that is your anchor.
Joshua Boswell:
Russell De Vos: You don't come to me and ask me to help you get rid of the snakes. You go to Jesus and you look up to Him and you receive His grace and His mercy when you need it, as you need it. And that can be dozens, hundreds of times, even, a day.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, that's right.
Margie Boswell: So many. Well the whole scripture of a child shall rule over them, you know, in the latter days, in the last days. And that's what we're seeing so much with our children.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. And we need to shift that paradigm and look to God and raise our family in Godly ways and biblical ways.
Margie Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: Ok well, Russ. Dogonit. We're out of time again!
Margie Boswell: Can you tell her people how to connect with your program? How do we find you online?
Russell De Vos: Yeah. I think the simplest way is to go to my website, www.CatalystCoachingHQ.com. That’s www.CatalystCoachingHQ.com. HQ as in headquarters.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: There are opportunities there to set up what I call a “stop the chaos Zoom consultation.” It's a free call to just talk about what's going on in your family and how we might be able to turn it around working together.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Russell De Vos: The other is to get a free what’s called the Lifeline Quick Start Guide. It's essentially my whole program bullet pointed. All the steps, all that I teach in the course in short bullet points. Not built out the whole course but enough so they get a clear understanding of what the course is and how to walk to from chaos to calm and confident, with a plan. And so… www.CatalystCoachingHQ.com. I think that's the best place for people to go.
Margie Boswell: Awesome! So great.
Joshua Boswell: I love it. Margie and I are underscore, exclamation point, bold, all caps, encouraging people to go and to check that out. Especially if you're facing this situation with the delinquent or drug abusing child of some sort. And again, I started this off talking about the challenges that I've seen in my own life with siblings and relatives and family. And the way that that's hurt them. And I've also seen the challenge that it is of being an asset in your child's life versus a liability.
Russell De Vos: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And the crazy part about it is, guys, is that moving from an asset to a liability is not overly complicated. It just requires a handful of paradigm shifts.
Russell De Vos: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And understanding a little bit better how God works. And I think that that is what… you know, Russ has devoted his life to, A, being transformed by the Lord. I know that about you. It's why I love you so much and just admire you so much, is that there's this endless, relentless, commitment to Christ and to be transformed by Him.
Russell De Vos: Mmm.
Joshua Boswell: And because of that, you've now said, Okay, I'm going to be God's hands in helping other people walk that same journey. Not focusing on you, but on Him. So anyway… That's my strong, underscored pitch of, if you need help in this category, we really believe Russ is your best option. He's grounded in Christ. He's got experience. And he's got the tools and the resources. You saw today, I mean these paradigm shifts he talked about are absolutely stunning. They're powerful. So anyway, that's our encouragement. Go check him out.
Margie Boswell: Yep.
Russell De Vos: You guys are awesome. This is more fun than we deserve. I mean… this is so good.
Margie Boswell: It’s great.
Russell De Vos: Yeah, thank you so much for allowing me to… I think it's just kind of a chat. I feel like I'm sitting right across from you in Arkansas there, so..
Joshua Boswell: I know! We feel the same way. We admire you tremendously. Okay.
Russell De Vos: It goes both ways.
Joshua Boswell: Give our love and blessings to Heather and your children, and can't wait to visit with you another time.
Russell De Vos: Let's do it. Look forward to it.
Margie Boswell: Thanks Russ! Take care.
Russell De Vos: Okay, bye-bye.