Podcast Transcript
Attendees:
Joshua Boswell, Margie Boswell, Barb Winters
Transcript:
Joshua Boswell: Hello everyone! Welcome to the Happy Family Club Podcast. We're so excited to have you here today. And our special guest Barb Winters is here with us, and I was just saying to her how much I love her name. There's so much joy and emotion in that connection… I have an Aunt Barb who literally was a surrogate mother for me just so anyway… There's a lot of reasons why we're excited to have you here, but one of them is your amazing name. So we're excited to have you.
Margie Boswell: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: And I thought Margie could do a quick introduction for you… And if we get anything wrong, correct us.
Barb Winters: Okay!
Joshua Boswell: And then we'll dive right in. So babe?
Margie Boswell: Yeah, Barb Winters. We're so grateful that you're here with us today. She is an amazing person as I've come to get to know you a bit. She's written this book called Sexpetations: Helping the Next Generation Navigate Healthy Relationships, which is a topic that is so needed today. It's amazing. But she's also a certified sexual risk avoidance specialist. Did I say that right?
Barb Winters: Yes, ma'am.
Joshua Boswell: Awesome.
Margie Boswell: There you go! Which is also very needful. Certified mental health coach, she's done a bunch of research on pornography and it's effects on individuals and our society, basically. And so she speaks a lot at churches, schools. Does a lot of coaching. Just to help people with behaviors that can be risky for them in the future and help them make healthy choices, right? Yeah…
Barb Winters: Yes, ma'am.
Joshua Boswell: And you're in Florida, right?
Barb Winters: Yes, Central, Florida. Yep.
Margie Boswell: Four children? Adult children, right?
Barb Winters: Yes, four adult, grown children. We're empty nesting at the moment.
Joshua Boswell: At the moment. And I see some family pictures behind you. Such a beautiful family. Very cool. Very sweet.
Margie Boswell: Yes. Yeah.
Barb Winters: Yeah, yeah. We like them.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, and your husband is a pastor, right?
Barb Winters: Yes, he is. Yep.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, I saw that you like to take long romantic walks with your pastor.
Margie Boswell: On the beach.
Barb Winters: Yeah, yeah. We enjoy that together. But yeah, yeah the big joke is well… he’s also my husband. So yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Love it. So fun.
Margie Boswell: Well and you do counseling with parents of children with addictions and sexual addictions and pornography and things. I think that's amazing because so many parents are embarrassed by that and try to hide it and feel like they're alone.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Margie Boswell: …and don't have a lot of support. So thank you for that amazing work that you're doing. Yeah. Thanks for joining us Barb.
Barb Winters: Yeah, I'm loving being here. Thanks for having me.
Joshua Boswell: Wonderful. So I want to get to our key question, because I know you've got a lot to add. Because families… there's so much in our world now surrounding relationships and sexuality and the intimacy that exists between two human beings and so much messed up stuff. So I'm really excited to get around that to help you… Well, you can talk about whatever you want. So I don't want to lead the… what do they call that? Leading the witness? I want to do that. But I first want to hear a little bit about how you got here. I mean it's a very unusual thing. Most people they're either brazen about this topic or they're so embarrassed about it that it just never gets brought up. And having someone who talks about it in a healthy way is so unique. So, how did you…? Tell us your background? How did you get here?
Barb Winters: Absolutely. I love to tell my story. And just a little caveat because even yesterday somebody's like I can't believe you're telling the story. My son knows all my stories. We have his permission to talk about him and his stuff. But it really started right after we moved to Florida.
Joshua Boswell: Uh-huh.
Barb Winters: Years ago now. But we had brought our son and our daughter, our youngest two with us right after we moved to Florida. Our older two were already out of the house at the time. And my husband and I were taking a walk, just kind of enjoying these new Florida surroundings, the sunshine and where we moved and all the fun things kind of enjoying our day together. And as we rounded the corner to cross a busy street to get to our house, we could see our son standing in the yard and he was in hysterics.
Joshua Boswell: Wow.
Barb Winters: He was motioning to us and jumping up and down and wondering where we were and trying to get our attention. And both my husband and I were standing there, as the traffic was kind of in our way, going, Oh my gosh. What could possibly be going on over there? Is our daughter lying in a pool of blood? Has someone broken into the house? What could possibly be this distressing? And when the traffic finally broke and we were able to reach him he was kind of wailing and I could barely understand what he was saying. I heard words like watching porn, warning, police coming. And it's kind of weird… I remember that, I'm standing in this beautiful Florida environment. The grass is green and there's flowers blooming and it's a normal day with cars going by. And yet the trajectory of my mom life changed right then and there.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: It was a very pivotal moment of my life because we had no idea. Literally no idea that this could possibly be happening under our roof in our house. You know, we'd had the sex talk with our kiddos. Like you mentioned, my husband's a pastor.
Joshua Boswell: mmm
Barb Winters: I was homeschooling my kids… and we just really thought there was no way this could possibly go on in our world. And I remember I had a gag reflex in the back of my throat. I thought it was gonna throw up. And then all the feels. You know, shock first and then anger and hurt and shame like you mentioned, I was like… This is awful. But mostly loneliness. Because who are you gonna tell?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: Who was I going to turn to and say, Hey my sons watching porn, how about yours?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah!
Barb Winters: I mean, I wasn't gonna say those words out loud to anyone. I never thought that I would disclose this to anyone. And we helped him. And we put some practical things into place to try and help him. But what we didn't know is he went quickly, got back into his habit and later he confessed again. This time the confession was deep felt, it was wholehearted. He really wanted out of the addiction that he had found himself in.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And we were able to really help him a little more. But through all that, I was a mess. I'm like the mom on the floor falling apart. What did I do? I’ve broken my child. This was all my fault. Guilt-ridden, everything. I didn't know how to view my son anymore. I'm like, who is this kid? I thought you were one thing but you're really this other thing. I was a mess. And I could not find help for myself.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Barb Winters: So I could find help for other people. For him, I mean. I could find help… you know, people were telling me do this for him, do this for him, do this for him. And I'm like, okay I can do all that. But what about me?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Because I'm the one who really needs help here also. And so at some point, through all this… it was years that we were kind of in this situation. I just heard God saying, Well you start talking about it. You need to be that person that you needed for you.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And so that's what I did. I started Hopeful Mom, at www.hopefulmom.net, and I sorta hung my hat if you will. If you have a child that’s watching pornography, I can be a sounding board, I can be someone… I like to say I give virtual hugs.
Joshua Boswell: Yeahh…
Barb Winters: Because that’s really what parents need at first. You know they really need to know I am not alone. I’m gonna be okay. My child’s gonna be okay. I just wrap my arms around them and say, It's gonna be alright. This does not define them. This does not define them. We're going to get through this. And then after a while it sort of morphed, it got a little bigger. I do a lot of online safety stuff. I now work for a nonprofit as a sexual risk avoidance specialist, like you were saying. And then I wrote a book. And the book really is about helping our kids understand what healthy relationships look like.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Especially in this sexualized culture that they live in.
Joshua Boswell: That's an incredible background. It really is amazing.
Margie Boswell: What a story.
Joshua Boswell: And the thing that stood out to me there is that… and you kind of mentioned it passingly, but that it was this years long process, right?
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And I wonder if you could speak just… we'll get into some other stuff in a minute. But I'd love to hear you speak just a little bit to that concept of enduring through some of those things. And being able to manage yourself and your life and your child and having the patience to not give up.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And also not to… I don't know what the right word is, but it's like how do you love yourself and your child through that many years of experience? Right?
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So maybe you could speak to some of that just really quick.
Barb Winters: Absolutely. I mean parenting is a ridiculously hard job.
Joshua Boswell: Yep!
Barb Winters: And I think that we need to acknowledge that a little bit more, right? Parents need a lot more pats on the back, because if you stick with it, then it's a big deal. Right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah!
Barb Winters: So we… I think part of it was just leaning into this is a long endeavor.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: There is no quick fix.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: Reminding myself daily what the end goal is right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Because we have a reason for parenting, and we should. If we don’t, we should, right? We should be thinking farther into the future. So my end goal is to have mature, healthy, adults who contribute more to the society than they take.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: That was my end goal. And when I had that in mind, it's a little easier to get up every day.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And it doesn't matter what… it really doesn't matter what the issue is, right? Whether your kid knocks over milk onto a table or scratches the door or sneaks out of the house. Whatever it is, they're doing, when we have that perspective of, Okay, the end goal is to have that mature, healthy, adult.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: We're not raising kids. We're raising adults. Then we can stick in it further for the long haul. Now personally, one of the transformations that I went through was how to view my child. And I kind of touched on it and my story a little bit. But it was really difficult because I knew my son to be this funny, loving, personable kid who asked a bunch of questions and was constantly talking. Very interactive, very loving. All about legal stuff he constantly asked, Well is that legal or what about this? And would dive into theological questions. So this was the kid I thought I knew. And then I found out the secret kid.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: So I had a really hard time melding these two together. Who is he? Is he this kid that I've always known, or is he THIS kid? And so I really struggled. Because I learned growing up that a person who went into the back end of the video store and looked at THOSE videos. They were kind of monsters.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: They were like the riffraff of society. And so now I'm like, is that my child?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Is he the riffraff of society? Is he a monster? And so I think at some point God really helped me understand that… Well it was through research, really. Because when I started researching the pornography industry and what they're doing and how they prey on our children… they’re predators, they pray on children.
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah.
Barb Winters: I was like wait a minute. I have the wrong view. My son is not a monster. He's a victim.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And he's a victim of this porn industry, and a victim of the society that is either pretending like it doesn't exist… or celebrating it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And so I need to change how I see him. And that was really a pivotal point in my recovery also, but in our relationship, too. Because when you can start to see your child for who he really is, not all good, not all bad, right? Because we're three-dimensional. We're not these flat people. Then we can start interacting in a little bit of a better way. We can be a little more relaxed. We can be okay when they have faults and mistakes. You know, they're trying to muddle through life too, just like we are. They haven't got it all figured out anymore than we do, really. But eventually God said, not only is he a victim but he's a potential victor.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: So it was really cool. And my husband helped me see that because he is a Pastor, so we'll give him that credit. So that monster to victim to potential victor was really instrumental in helping me stick through it in the long haul. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. So powerful.
Margie Boswell: That’s such great advice and information.
Joshua Boswell: It's very interesting to me… and most of the people listening to this will be people of strong faith or at least wanting to be… You know, hoping to see themselves as people of strong faith in God and in Christ. And it's always fascinating to me, and I'm a victim… guilty as charged about what I'm about to say. But it's like we want ourselves and our children to be perfect and then we forget like… Oh wait a minute. If we're all perfect and we're embarrassed when we're not perfect, why did God even do what He did, right?
Barb Winters: True story. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Well no, hold on. He knew we were going to be human. He knew we were gonna make mistakes. He knew we were gonna have problems. And the other thing that I want everyone to listen to is… We are gonna center a lot of our conversation on these addictions and healthy human relationships and all these kinds of things today. But the truth is, I think that what we're talking about here is a way to understand and better connect with our children. Regardless of what that infirmity, or weakness, or human element… You know, all of that. You talked about this three dimensional thing. The right, the wrong and then that third element. It’s like that third element can be all kinds of stuff. And like you said from lying to cheating to sneaking out at night to whatever. By the way, you’re describing my childhood, but I won't get into that. So…
Barb Winters: Mine too!
Joshua Boswell: So accepting that, Wow, we're not perfect, our children aren't perfect. And that's why God does what He does and that's why we're here as parents. Wow. That just is like… AH! It takes all this pressure off. And now, let's just figure out how to do this. And that's where you come in and are so powerful Barb.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: You're helping as soon as we get to that spot… Well, even helping us get that spot and saying, okay, what do we do?
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So thank you for sharing that and I think that seeing it as a long journey and seeing that end goal of helping our children really become solid adults that are contributing and God-fearing and just wonderful and serving other people more than they are served. It's such a beautiful concept. Really, it’s cool.
Margie Boswell: And that they can become the victor.
Joshua Boswell: I know, right?
Margie Boswell: That they can overcome this and conquer it is so powerful.
Barb Winters: Absolutely, absolutely.
Joshua Boswell: So powerful. Alright well, thank you for sharing that background. I didn't mean to get us off on a tangent, but it really wasn't a tangent. It was really well done. So beautiful. So if we throw the question we love to ask at you… what's one thing that we can do as parents or we can do as families to create more joy and happiness in the family, where would you go with that question?
Barb Winters: It's a great question and I really pondered it for a minute. And I had all these notes and what's my tag line? What's this gonna be? But I came back to the tagline of my book and that is: Distorted Views Of The Intimate Relationships Abound. Let's Offer Youth A Better Option.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Barb Winters: And when we talk about healthy relationships, that's what we're doing, right? We're trying to offer our kids a better option. Because they get all this information just thrown at them through social media, from their peers, just society, etc. And we need to be available and let them know there's a better way. There really is.
Joshua Boswell: So I think what I hear you saying is that the actual core environment… We were talking about this the other day. We were looking at divorce rates from the late 1700s and 1800s, and it was about five to six percent right? So shocking, right?
Barb Winters: Wow.
Joshua Boswell: And today we're pushing 50 plus percent. And I had this conversation with our children. I said, What are some of the… It’d be interesting to look at what are some key things that shifted in our world to contribute to that breakdown of families and of marriages? And I don't know everything, but one of the things I think is that this concept that you've hit so ideally is this healthy relationships. I think we just don't know. And our culture is saturated with dysfunctional relationship qualities, right?
Barb Winters: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: So maybe you could dive a little deeper into that. And I don't know how you normally quantify it. Again, I wish I'd read your book before we started. But I wonder… because we look at healthy relationships. And of course we have relationships with ourselves, with our parents, as we get into being adults, relationships with loved ones, romantic relationships. So, where would you say is a real critical fulcrum point? Let's just imagine for a moment we've got smaller children, tweens coming into their teen years, which is really where stuff starts to go haywire for a lot of parents, right? What would you say is our key relationships in that age and maybe we look at some of the other categories of people.
Barb Winters: Sure. Well I think one of the things that we need to do as parents is to actually understand the culture that they live in.
Joshua Boswell: Okay, great.
Barb Winters: I mean until my son had this issue, I didn't get it. I had no idea.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: I didn't know all the things connected to the internet and that all the things we're getting could have all this stuff come into the house. I had no idea. And so I think that's part of it. And then not judge. Right? Because I think a lot of times… and it happens every generation.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: We do it. The generation above me, Oh these kids these days. You know? And now we're saying it about the Next Generation, right? And so just not judging, not criticizing, not making snide remarks. Instead let’s really immerse ourselves in what does their life look like?
Joshua Boswell: Mm-hmm
Barb Winters: I think until we do that, we can't really understand them and then we can't affect them. We can't have an effect on who they are and what they're doing in the choices that they're making. Because they're going to just fluff us off like we don't know what we're talking about. And to some degree, we may not know. They don't understand that we've lived this life. Look, we had the same troubles you do. It wasn't in the same context that you have it in right?
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Barb Winters: We didn’t have smartphones, but we did have hormones. You know? It's like… we did go through some of this. Kind of like when you said, you were describing your childhood and I'm like, mine too. Right?
Joshua Boswell: yeah.
Barb Winters: I did all the things. But understanding where they're coming from, right? So that we can come alongside them then and empathize with them. And then talk with them and love. Because they have the hookup culture and they have pornography being thrown at them. They're sending nudes and they think that's normal
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: When somebody asks for a nude and they're a middle schooler. That's just normal. Oh, okay, that person likes me. I'm gonna send it. Or they might choose not to for a minute or two, but then they have the peer pressure, right?
Joshua Boswell: That’s right.
Barb Winters: Asking, asking, asking, asking… and finally caving because, Well, he says he loves me. And it's guys and girls both.
Joshua Boswell: right
Barb Winters: They're sending back and forth. They've got predators trying to groom them for human trafficking through their dm’s, while they're on their video games, or while they're scrolling through their social media. There's extortion, I mean, it's a lot.
Joshua Boswell: It's a lot.
Barb Winters: And when you start to dive into what they're really dealing with, I think it helps us be a little bit more understanding and a little bit more empathetic. So that's where I start. And I don't know if I answered your question or not.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: That's kind of one of the things that I think is very key. That's like the base if you will of trying to affect your preteens and your teens and their relationship. And then we can start, Okay, I hear you, I understand what you're saying. Now let's look at what healthy relationships look like.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, very cool. I think that it's amazing… I mentioned we have 11 children and so we hear a lot of stuff. And then also I've had a chance to sit down and counsel with just hundreds of teens. And it's amazing, it's almost unfathomable the degree of pressure that they're getting from peers and from society to engage in unhealthy relationships and sexuality. It's really crazy.
Barb Winters: Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Like you're saying, between the pictures and the chats and the dm’s, etc. it's really quite remarkable. So there's a cool scripture in Isaiah that talks about… it's a prophecy of Christ. And I'm paraphrasing, but He says that He'll be fed butter and honey, that He can know the good and eskew the evil, right?
Barb Winters: I like that. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So powerful. And I thought of that when I saw the title of your book, it's going to teach them the healthy, we're gonna show them the healthy stuff. So, can you give us an idea of what do those healthy relationships look like? And maybe follow that up with, How do we effectively communicate that or teach that or model that… I don't know what you suggest. How do we pass that on to our children? Because like you said a lot of times they just love us off and roll their eyes right?
Barb Winters: Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So I think that understanding what the relationship is and then how to transfer that would be really powerful for people.
Barb Winters: Right. Well I think modeling is really the key, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: So we have to understand it ourselves. And that is a big issue to begin with. Because a lot of us didn't grow up in a home where it was modeled properly or we didn't grow up in a church that modeled it properly.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: And the church is ever evolving in the sense of we're learning as we go.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: The church didn't talk about sex and sexuality and pornography and all these issues years ago. They're barely talking about it now, if at all.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: So first we have to come to the point where we're understanding what a healthy relationship is. And so yeah, the middle part of the book Sexpectations is all about the habits of healthy relationships.
Joshua Boswell: Hmm.
Barb Winters: And I use the backdrop of First Corinthians 13, right, the love chapter, to try and help understand what do these look like. And there's more than what I say, but I talked about four. So love in the love chapter, I refer to 1 John 4:14. We loved because He first loved us. Well we have to accept that love.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Barb Winters: We have to understand who He is and His love for us in order to be able to then give it out. We need to receive it before we can pass it along. And then selflessness…
Joshua Boswell: Hey can I stop you on that receiving thing…?
Barb Winters: Sure.
Joshua Boswell: Because it's a really really… to me, big thing. I wonder if you have seen best practices in helping children develop the ability to accept love?
Barb Winters: mmm
Joshua Boswell: Because I see… again, the society we live in is such a… You see everything on social media that's perfect. It's like everybody's best or whatever and then you start, and then the comparison game and it's just destroys children's esteem and their self-concept and makes it really hard for them. So what do you…? Just again, I want to get to number two three and four, but that receiving love is such a vital thing.
Barb Winters: Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: How do we get our children to do that?
Barb Winters: That's a great question. And we can't really change them, ight?
Joshua Boswell: yeah.
Barb Winters: We can't tell them what to do or how to do it. I think it's just all about the modeling.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And making sure that as they go through… it's the little things I think we do, right?
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Barb Winters: And I mean as you're talking, one of the things I remember is one of my kids years and years ago… I was homeschooling them and they were doing so well in their spelling. And for the first time they missed a word, and they just fell apart. Just fell apart. And I was like… Oh my gosh, what do I do?
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: But I kind of told him, I just kind of wrapped my arms around him and I was like, the whole point of this is for you to get to the place where you're not… where we know you need help.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Where we know that you need some learning.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: If you spelled all the words correctly then there'd be no reason for us having this lesson today or ever.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: So just kind of coming alongside them in those moments and helping them to see this is a good thing.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Where you need some help. And that's where you need to lean on me. And ultimately we want them to eventually lean on God.
Joshua Boswell: Mm-hmm.
Barb Winters: And I'm here for you. Right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: So when we model that, I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to love you in your faults and on the days that you don't spell words correctly. Then hopefully they will see as they go that when other people do that to them, that they can come back to that core that Foundation.
Joshua Boswell: Totally. Yes.
Barb Winters: Where they know the love and acceptance and belonging actually exists.
Joshua Boswell: And you know what you're teaching them there? I mean, I love this. It's like an epiphany for me. It's like you're teaching them like you do not have to be perfect to be loved, right?
Margie Boswell: Yes.
Barb Winters: Yes, yes.
Joshua Boswell: In fact, I love you all the more because you're not perfect and we're together, learning together and it's totally cool.
Barb Winters: Absolutely.
Joshua Boswell: It's beautiful. Okay, so that's love. Number two. Where do we go from here?
Barb Winters: So the second one is selflessness.
Joshua Boswell: Mmm.
Barb Winters: And so I mean there's nothing that teaches selflessness anymore, I think, than parenting.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah!
Barb Winters: We… I mean seriously, it is just again the hardest job. But also the most rewarding job. And we have got to just let go of who we are and have that selflessness. And kind of back to what we were talking about a minute ago, but we agape love our children. Which is the highest form of love, right? That selfless, unconditional love, by finding out what their needs are and then trying to meet those.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: So the belonging and the acceptance and the safety and the validation and feeling valued. I mean we talk about needs more like food and shelter. Those are definite needs.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: But what we all have that place in our heart, in our emotional being, where we literally need all of these other things. So belonging, acceptance, safety, unconditional love. And I thought of a story when you were talking about before. One of the things we did when our son, that first conversation on the yard, it took a while. But at the end of that conversation, I literally sat next to him and I put my arm around him and I said, I do want you to know that we love you unconditionally.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: That this does not change our love for you.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And we are going to change some things in our household. We're going to change some parameters. We're gonna change some guidelines. We're gonna put some protections in place, but it's because we love you. We're not mad at you. We're not going to punish you. But we are going to change some things.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: So I think just voicing that regularly is so important. Our kids need to know that they're loved.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, so true. The image that I keep having coming into my mind is as we've taught our children how to ride bikes? It’s guaranteed when you put that child on the bike for their first major solo trip, and you send them off, it's like a 99.9% guarantee they're going to fall and scrape a knee or something.
Barb Winters: Yeah. yep.
Joshua Boswell: And never once have we run over to him and been like, You dumb kid! I can't believe you fell off your bike. What's wrong with you!? It’s just like, Oh, you fell down? you scoop them up, you love them, you give them a Band-Aid if you need to, and you're like, okay, let's keep going. Let's try it again. And I get that sense from you of, Yeah, this pornography and deviant sexual behavior and stuff. It is an issue and they're living in a world that heavily promotes that.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And they're gonna fall down and bang up their knees sometimes. And so that we get to love them. I love what you did, put your arm around your son. We will change some stuff and we love you. I guess you said it in a different order: we love you and we’ll change.
Barb Winters: Yeah. Yes. I can't brag on always getting that right, but that moment.
Joshua Boswell: Nope!
Margie Boswell: That’s the goal, right?
Barb Winters: That's the goal. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, sometimes I have definitely freaked out about scraped knees, you know?
Barb Winters: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: Oh well. But shockingly I'm also human, even though I'm an adult. I don't know.
Barb Winters: Imagine! I'm sure your wife can attest to that more than you can.
Joshua Boswell: Oh yeah, she can. She on the other hand is like Mary Poppins. Practically perfect in every way.
Barb Winters: That's so sweet!
Joshua Boswell: So love and selflessness…
Barb Winters: Yes. Mutuality is the next one. So that one's rough, right? Especially in the church, because it's like, what does that mean?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Who's the head of the household? What does this submission thing look like? So I went for years trying to figure this out. And our kids are receiving messages through online venues that sexual encounters are mutual. That's what they think. That’s what society is telling them, that both parties are agreeing to what's happening on the screens. But they're receiving a wrong message. Pornography promotes physical and sexual assault. It promotes women as commodities. It promotes racism. Online gaming promotes violence and portraying women as sex objects. So this is where they're coming from. But mutuality really means that both parties support each other and each person's goals and dreams and aspirations.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: They're each other's cheerleader. And I love that about my marriage. Because we've both had times where one of us has been trying to really go for something, and we're behind each other 100%. We're supporting them. And I've really seen that from my husband recently. Because for years it was me staying at home with my kids homeschooling, and he was a pastor, he was making the money, he was doing all the things necessary to keep our family together. But as I've stepped out and done some things, he's really rallied behind me and become my biggest cheerleader.
Joshua Boswell: So cool.
Barb Winters: I know I could just cry thinking about it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: But that's what we need. And we also need that mutual respect and accountability. We need to be all each other's accountability partners. And so that… helping our kids understand all these things in a healthy relationship.
And the last one in the book is communication and we've touched on that a little bit throughout the whole conversation we've been having here. But really deciding that we are going to work on that communication with our children. And that really means for us as parents to pay attention.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And sometimes we need to also get our heads out of the phone in order to look up and look at our children in the eye and listen to what they have to say. Even if they're… I don't know about you, but I've had some kids that could tell a story in 10 minutes that could have maybe taken 1.
Joshua Boswell: Or 30 seconds. Yeah.
Barb Winters: So to be able to look and really give me your attention and continue nodding.
Joshua Boswell: Yep.
Barb Winters: Because that's so important that they know that we are interested in who they are at the core of their being. We want to know who they are, and so modeling that and being aware of our body language and paying attention to our tone and our inflection. Because they can read all that.
Joshua Boswell: Sure. Oh yeah.
Barb Winters: They know when we're really frustrated even though our words are saying something different.
Joshua Boswell: Can we go back to mutuality just really quick?
Barb Winters: Sure.
Joshua Boswell: And then I have a question about communication. So that mutuality and talking about having both parties supporting each other and having the best interest in mind for each other… That’s such an interesting… I mean, it's an offshoot from selflessness, but we do live in a selfish environment. And also I think that you said they make assumptions that when they're online there's this mutual agreement that it's okay.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And I just wondered if you've seen best practices on helping youth especially kind of get out of themselves? And realize that… actually, if they're looking at porn or they’re engaging in some of these activities, it's hurting both parties substantially, you know?
Barb Winters: It is.
Joshua Boswell: And I just wonder how to help them come to that sort of awareness level.
Barb Winters: Sure. In the classroom we talk about the brain science and how the brain works. And so the fight between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex, which is the instinctual part, the pleasure seeking part versus the reasoning part.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And so sometimes we help them understand that… They’re in a struggle. They're in a clash. And they're under construction, that prefrontal cortex hasn't quite developed yet. And so helping them understand that when you get caught up in these types of behaviors, you're actually forming grooves in your path that as you become an adult are going to be detrimental to you.
Joshua Boswell: Wow. Yeah.
Barb Winters: And so helping them understand like, I need to resist this temptation. I need to turn away from this in order to help develop my prefrontal cortex. Now that… Trying to reason with students doesn't always work. But when we also talk about bonding with a screen. And so understanding that when… We are made to connect as humans.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Barb Winters: And so when we bond with screens, then it's difficult to then turn around and bond with a real live person.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And so my hope is that when we talk about that, that they understand that this actually is going to hinder me in a real life relationship. If not now, someday. Just really wanting them to understand that connection and how they're hurting themselves and their future selves. And that was one of the things actually that was instrumental, I believe, in my son's healing.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: He figured out that, you know what? This is going to hurt me into the future.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: So helping them understand that those people in the videos that you're watching, they don't actually want to be there.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Most of them have been coerced, tricked, trafficked, whatever to get to that point. Or they're in a state of… A drug induced state.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Or they thought it was their last resort. I mean, most people don't wake up one day and think, Oh, I want to be a pornstar.
Joshua Boswell: Right.
Barb Winters: So helping them understand, we are hurting ourselves, but we're hurting other people too by contributing to it. Right?
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Pornography fuels sex trafficking and when we understand that, hopefully they'll say no. I do remember one day, it was several years ago, that I was saying that in the classroom. And one of the guys eyes got really big and he was like, What are you saying? And I could tell that there was just some clicking going on. And I just was hoping that this was really sinking in. Like, the next time you go to click that you're thinking, Wait a minute. I'm actually contributing to this criminal industry.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, totally. Wow, that's powerful. And those are really hard things to talk about. But that is the reality of our world.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: A number of years ago, it's probably been maybe close to 10 years ago now. I was doing some consulting with a gal who ran a very successful business and we got talking about her backstory. And she, at 16 years old, had run away from home, was homeless, out on the streets, got a little bit into drugs, but then had no way to make money and so entered the prostitution world. And talked about what happened to her and what she was treated like. And subsequent entry into some pornography stuff and the horrific tales that she told were unbelievable. And as I'm listening to her, I thought, if most respectable young man heard this story.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And understood the pain that these people were going through and what their life was really like, I think that it would totally change their perspective on this glamor industry, right?
Barb Winters: Right.
Joshua Boswell: And that's what I hear you saying. And I think also… A book that I really enjoy, I can't say it's one of my favorites, but a book I really enjoy which might be interesting for people to read is this book called The Talent Code. And The Talent Code just talks about the neuroscience behind developing talents. And how we, create these neurological pathways in our brain. And it goes into the science and everything by and it's kind of like you're talking about. But when I understood that, that was also very beneficial for me and understanding like, you know… we create habits by repetition and high emotion. And pornography pours that in sexual relations. Pours that in, both high repetition and high emotion. And it super distorts the brain.
Barb Winters: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: I think that when we understand that… So anyway, I love that because mutuality is great. It's a lose/lose situation and healthy relationships are win/win situations, is what I hear you talking about, Barb.
Barb Winters: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: So it's very cool. We have just a few minutes left and I could talk about forever with you on this. But communications.
Barb Winters: Yep.
Joshua Boswell: Can you help us just understand a couple key communication skills that both we can have with our children and that we can teach to our children to help them become? Again the end goal, become this responsible, mature, contributing, member of society and family and their world, right? So what are some key communication skills?
Barb Winters: Well I think as you ask that question what came to mind is patience.
Margie Boswell: That’s a bigy! And again, listening. Just those listening skills. I don't think we can overplay the listening.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: Asking open-ended questions. So when it comes to communicating specifically about a topic, especially a difficult topic like pornography or nudes or whatever it is, asking ended questions to see where they're at.
Joshua Boswell: Mm-hmm
Barb Winters: But part of that is just to let the kids know, we're not afraid of this conversation.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Yeah.
Barb Winters: So stepping into the awkward. And I used to say when I was first talking about this is to practice. And so get in front of a mirror. If you're not used to saying pornography, masturbation, sending nudes, whatever. The body parts. Get in front of a mirror and practice. And then step into the awkward. Because it's going to be strange at first. And when I first started talking about this, even with my son just the two of us, my head was down and I was looking at my feet and he was doing the same thing. And we'd be hum-hawing and stuttering. But the more you talk about it the easier it becomes. And so just be willing.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: But our kids need to know that we are a safe landing place for them.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And letting them know that we're not going to Google all the questions that we have. Instead, we're going to come to Mom or Dad and ask those questions so that you get an appropriate answer and a clean version answer and you don't run across those things that we purposely are trying to avoid.
Joshua Boswell: Exactly. I know I was counseling a young couple a couple years ago. They've been married… I don't know, six-eight months or something. And the wife was like, Well, we never talked about any of this stuff growing up.
Barb Winters: Mmm.
Joshua Boswell: So I had no idea how to take care of my husband or how to engage sexually with him.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: It was just a foreign concept. So I just decided to start learning about it. So I Googled a bunch of stuff and she was like… the world was blown apart and.
Barb Winters: Oh no. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Luckily she had some good, healthy resources to eventually turn to but it was like it blew her away.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Because the answer is, shockingly… big tech companies are not running around trying to calculate how to strengthen families and teach healthy relationship.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Margie Boswell: Like Google.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, I mean…
Margie Boswell: It’s not their purpose.
Joshua Boswell: It’s like, they're not intentionally baking it into their algorithm. Right? So it's like when you look up stuff you may not always get the best answers that will help your family.
Barb Winters: Exactly. You brought up a point that I should make because I haven't touched on this at all. But this is not just a guy problem. It is a girl problem too.
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Barb Winters: And that's how they find it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: They have a question that they're just flat out curious. And whether you're 20 or whatever this beautiful wife was or you're 10…
Joshua Boswell: Yes.
Barb Winters: …you search Google and then you get this. And some people are like, Ahh… no thank you. But for a lot of people it is very intriguing and so they're more curious and they come back and something's triggered in their head and the chemicals start going.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And they come back again and again. But we're doing a disservice by not remembering that it's girls and boys that get caught up in this behavior.
Joshua Boswell: Right. Yeah. It's so very true. And I think, too, we get caught up… Going back to your comment of is my son a monster or not. An interesting conversation we've had many times over the years with our children is about alcohol. So my grandpa on both sides, both alcoholics, both died of alcohol related stuff. My older brother is a severe alcoholic. He’s recovering and fairly sober. I say fairly… he’s sober right now. So I grew up in this whole world, not only abuse and sex abuse but also drugs and alcohol. So we have been very open about teaching our children about alcohol and the effects of alcoholism, Etc. And one day one of our children said something to the effect of, I'm never gonna drink alcohol because it tastes terrible and it's awful and went on. And I said, hold on, I got bad news for you. Now I've never tasted alcohol myself, I said, but apparently it's really good. Right?
Margie Boswell: Otherwise all these people wouldn’t be drinking it!
Barb Winters: Right.
Joshua Boswell: Your body is designed to respond to this.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: And I said, it's the same thing with sex. You're actually designed to have these feelings and these hormones and these desires. It's supposed to be that way for lots of different reasons. So we can't vilify that, we just have to learn this proper sphere that it comes into.
Barb Winters: Right. Yes.
Joshua Boswell: And the problem is that we look things up and we have these feelings, and then if we're not having clear communication with the children, they're not sure if it's a good feeling or a bad feeling. Should I pursue this? Should I not pursue this? Should I sneak it? Am I now a monster? Am I like getting away with something? Am I having fun?
Barb Winters: Right.
Joshua Boswell: All this stuff. Plus they're going… especially if it's early in their teen years, they're going from what an estimated like 8 or 10 emotions that they feel to something like 40 or 50 and it's like… we're just compounding all that stuff all at the same time.
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: So… Open communication with them, like what you're saying, is crazy important so that it's like, No, you're not a freak of nature. You're not terrible for having those feelings. You looked at that girl, she was pretty, I'll bet that was exciting. It's supposed to be!
Barb Winters: Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: But here's what you do with that.
Barb Winters: yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Boswell: Here's how you deal with it.
Margie Boswell: How you handle it.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Oh, man, Barb, this is awesome. We probably ought to have a follow-up visit with you at some point, because we're out of time today. But I wonder if there's anything that you hoped we had asked you that you're like, Oh man, This Is My Jam. I really hope they ask me about this. And then I blew it and didn't ask. Is there something that I should have asked so that we could have talked about that you really wanted to talk about that you want to leave us with?
Barb Winters: Well I should round out my story because I always forget this part. My son is walking in freedom from his problem.
Joshua Boswell: Awww.
Barb Winters: He's my hero. I love him. We have an amazing relationship. And I always get choked up when I think about it because part of it is that it was through all this that we got closer and closer together. I mean at first there was a breach and then we had to come back together and reconciliation and restoration is so important. Learning how to forgive, Etc.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: But one advice I give or I guess a nugget of truth if you will to parents is to just say this does not define you.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And it doesn't define your child. Because our story isn't over yet.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And so if we're in the thick of it, we're in the problem stage, we’re in those years that we talked about at the beginning… There is hope. There is some hope. And there can be redemption and some forgiveness and reconciliation at the end.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah. Oh… that's a beautiful place to wrap up.
Margie Boswell: I’m glad you told us!
Joshua Boswell: Thank you!
Margie Boswell: That’s so great!
Joshua Boswell: And it's so true. There is… you know, having an assumption that our children won't change defies the mission of Christ and defies human nature. They can change and they can become. You're so very right. And there is redemption possible, so beautiful. Thank you. Now… so number one, I think that we ought to have a follow-up interview. But that's beside the point.
Barb Winters: Sure!
Joshua Boswell: But I'm willing to bet that there's a lot of additional questions or people listening who want to go deeper into your world.
Barb Winters: Sure.
Joshua Boswell: And understand these things a little bit better. So what's the best path to get into Barb Winters universe and understand all this stuff?
Barb Winters: The best path is to start at my website, which is www.hopefulmom.net. On the website they will find blogposts and links to various podcasts that I've been on like this one. They will find resources that I recommend, and of course, they'll find a link to the information about my book.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah.
Barb Winters: And they'll find links to social media that I'm on. Facebook and Linkedin and instagram.
Margie Boswell: That's great.
Joshua Boswell: That's awesome. And I'm assuming your book’s just available on Amazon as well?
Barb Winters: Yes, absolutely. Can find it on Amazon. And it just came out on Audible, so very exciting. Yeah.
Margie Boswell: There you go!
Joshua Boswell: Out of curiosity, did you narrate it?
Barb Winters: I did not, but I'm listening to it right now and the narrator did such an excellent job. I'm so impressed.
Margie Boswell: That’s so great! That’s exciting!
Joshua Boswell: I narrated a book and then wish I hadn’t. But anyway, that's a different story. Okay, wonderful, so www.hopefulmom.net. And then your book, Sexpectations.
Barb Winters: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: Well, that’s awesome. We’re going to shout it out to the world, send people there. I really want to encourage you guys… I don’t think this is a thing of, Hey… if maybe you’re having some struggles with some of this stuff in your family, I just don’t think that’s the conversation anymore.
Barb Winters: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: I think that every child now in our world today is going to have questions about healthy sexual relationships, about gender issues, about pornography, about all that kind of stuff. They're gonna have peer pressure coming at them in various degrees. So it's not a question of, Well, maybe we should just hold off and if something happens in our family we can talk about this. I just don't think that's the correct approach.
Barb Winters: Correct.
Joshua Boswell: I think that it's like, we as parents have got to be proactive, you know?
Margie Boswell: Proactive on it. Communicate and have that relationship so that they do feel comfortable talking to us.
Barb Winters: Absolutely.
Joshua Boswell: Yeah, it doesn’t just start… Like you so clearly said, it doesn't just start with “the talk.” it has to do with the relationship that we have with them. And like you said, the communication, the safe space and helping them understand selflessness and all the things.
Barb Winters: Yes.
Joshua Boswell: So anyway, Barb, thank you so much.
Margie Boswell: Thank you!
Barb Winters: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Joshua Boswell: Thanks for the frank conversation, for all you're doing in the world. We really appreciate it. So we wish you the best of luck, we're praying for you and for your success and for all those families out there for theirs as well. So anyway. Thanks again, we appreciate it. Alright. Take care.
Margie Boswell: Thank you.
Joshua Boswell: Bye now.
Margie Boswell: Bye.